SAS & SBS bickering

[joe]

All,

I've been lurking a lot longer than I've been posting on this site, and I have to say it does make me chuckle how much bickering and "one-up-manship" there is on these boards about the SBS & SAS. Hardly a thread goes by without somone piping up about how much harder the SBS selection course is than the SAS selection course (in the old days at least, before the two were combined). I've just seen a post now saying that the Mountain Leader course is harder than SBS selection, cos now SAS & SBS selections has been combined If all this joking around is meant to be tongue-in-cheek, it sure doesn't come across that way .... (the same has to be said for Paras Vs Royals, and vice versa I might add ).

As far as I'm aware, the only open source information that proclaims the SBS course to be harder is Duncan Falconers' book "First into Action". Now, I'm not knocking Marines or the SBS, don't get me wrong. However, having read the prologue in Falconers book, I kind of put his opinions down to his ego rather than anything based on fact (!). Since that book came out though, all I ever hear about the SBS is how much harder/better/sexier/high-speed they are than the SAS ... I would hate to think this is an EGO thing, cos it sure doesn't fit in with the Quiet Professionals image we're lead to believe is the ethos of UKSF

Joe

PS Not starting a p!ssing contest here, just some observations ...

[Chris]

I agree with you on this =JAY= but i must say the Para vs RM pissing contest has only began since AIRBORNE started useing these forums as for the SAS Vs SBS depate i realy dont think that anyone can say who is better for the simple reason the training is not puplicly aired

[Rover]

All

Again just observations.

1 Any selection course would seem to be structured so as to have a certain type of person at the end, one who is capable of operating under certain conditions.

The SAS looking at 'land' conditions in general.
The SBS looking at 'water' conditions in general.
M&AW looking at rather cold conditions to say the least.

2 Each are specialist in their own field.

Some people do not like operating at night on their own.
Others are not happy diving at night under a ship when your senses are very limited.
Some just do not like the cold.

3 I agree with Joe 'joking around' is one thing, but the 'one-up-manship' does seem to be an ego trip. An ego trip perhaps by those who have only read the book or seen the film?

4 I for one take my hat off to those 'Quiet Professionals' from the EOD who take that lone walk.
Looking at other areas of the services a tank is the last thing I would like to be in knowing all the anti-tank ordnance that is flying around.

5 No need for a p-contest we all have our stong and weak points.Respect a person for what they have achieved.

Back to cloaking and lurking, although seem to be having a problem with the 'Lurk Mode' control

[gash-hand]

Well it certainly wasn't my intention to join in the bickering - the situation is just how I see it. In my defence I'd like to offer up the following lines of thought:

I consider ML to be the hardest course in the UK forces because it encompasses so much - there are 4 distinct phases:
1. climbing in cornwall
2. The hills in north wales
3. survival and escape and evasion in scotland
4. Norway

This all takes about 9 months and is done in one hit, and volunteers can be binned at any point - just like SF.

Compare this with sas/sb, which is broken down into 2 phases:

1. hills
2. jungle

This takes about 3 - 4 months. It used to be that if you passed the hills then you were in the sas - although that changed a while ago and now the jungle is part of the selection process.

sb used to run their own selection process at Poole, but to be honest i don't know too much about it but have been on some of the routes. the main difference is the weight on sas selection the weight is set at 45lbs +rats +weapon. The old sb selection used to have bergans in excess of 90lbs. I guess the main argument for sb selection being easier is the fact that since WWII sb has always been around 10 - 20% under strength - due to the selection process - since the joint selection with hereford sb is now at full complement. Don't shoot the messenger on this point!! This was told to me by an old and bold sb sgt who left the service because he reckoned standards would drop.

As for who is the best - I personally don't think there's too much to pick between them, as once you're in you get the opportunity to hone your particular skills. I was just commenting on what I saw as the hardest initial selection course.

Does this go any further to allaying your concerns?

[joe]

Hi gash-hand,

I can't really comment on the ML course as I don't know enough about it, having never been through it, or even know anyone who has ... actually, on that last point, a strange thing happened at work earlier; a PC support guy came over to my desk to install something, we got chatting and it turns out he was in RM for 7 years and was a member of Brigade Patrol Troop! Small world! (I am right in thinking that BPT are the Mountain Leaders?) I'll have to go chat to him tomorrow as we were both rather busy today ... anyways ...

I was under the impression that SAS (now also SB) selection was broken down into the following phases:

1) Hills - 4 weeks
2) Jungle - 4 weeks
3) Continuation (inc. e&e) - 14 weeks approx
4) Jump course (if reqd) - 4 weeks

.. which comes to approx 5 1/2 months.

NB: I had heard that the hills phase is now just two weeks, presumably a weeks build up and then test week, so the above may be inaccurate.

I was also under the impression that it has always been the case that any candidate can be RTU'd during any of the above phases (never heard of just the hills being the be-all-and-end-all). Incidently there have been some comments on here that the SBS have a post selection process in addition to the above, and that if one fails that, then they may join the SAS instead . I've never seen how that is any different from the SAS, as they too have their post selection training (e.g. learning troop skills), and I'm sure if one fails that, you would be RTU'd (would that mean a candidate could say "Please can I go SB instead?" ).

Also I believe the weights for Selection are 55-60lbs + beltkit + weapon (for the end of Test Week at least), although of course this is nowhere near 90lbs + belt kit + weapon - as I'm not familar at all with the old SBS course, I'm can't really comment any further. Regarding pass rate, I know that the numbers completing the course are still very low and the Regiment is still understaffed (again, don't know from an SB perspective). Considering the Sabre Squadrons of 22 SAS would only be 200 (approx) strong if it were fully staffed, I would say that the pass rate must still be incredibly low - perhaps the reason for SB being at full compliment is because the Selection process is now open to whole of the Army as well as the Marines? Or would that be too much to stomach? (JOKE! ) ...

I'm no bean counter and I don't believe in arguing over whether carrying 50lbs or 60lbs is "harder" - the reason is that I'm sure the kind of people who make it through Selection (SB or otherwise) are the kinds who'll never give up, who are ultra determined, incredibly fit and confident enough to survive on their own, or work in small teams - whatever the situation demands basically.

Regards,
Joe

[gash-hand]

Hi Joe,

Well it is possible to join BPT as a normal (if there is such a thing) Marine - the ML's run an in-house aptitude and selection course.

You are right about the sas selection in its different phases except that once you pass the jungle phase you are in. The para phase is just a formality and the continuation training is just that - continuation. Short of refusing to jump out of the plane or shooting someone during drills you are in the regt for good (unless you're an officer). I think sb differs to sas in that you aren't in until you've passed the diving phase - hence the reason for being able to join sas if you fail sbs selection. It won't work the other way round as the sas recruit will have to undertake the diving phase as part of the same selection process - so unless he specifies that at the outset he'll have to wait until the next course.

The hills is 2 weeks for TA sas, 4 for regular selection. I've only heard of 1 army guy who wanted to go for sb selection in preference to sas, so its still 98% Marines that make up the unit - with a few matelots.

Also don't forget i'm not saying that ml are better than sb who are better than sas - just that i believe the ml course the hardest. On the norway phase the final exercise takes in a distance of 230 KM (i think) inside the artic circle, on ski's with bergans well over 100lbs and the average temp around -30.

One final statistic for you the pass rate for regulars attempting selection is 30% - the pass rate of ml's on selection is 90%. Not too sure what the pass rate of sas/sbs on ml's course is though - can anyone help?

[El Prez]

I did the aerial recce with the ML boss and his SNCO for the final patrol ex in Norge '79. The route over the glacier was indeed approx 230 kms and 200 miles inside the circle; it was horrendous. The patrol finished at the base of the glacier, requiring the candidates to ski down the face! Base Fjord was only a few clicks distant then.
When we got to the face of the glacier I had this question put to me. "Do you think they could ski down there?" (I couldn't stand on skis, let alone move on them) So I hovered down the face, having a look for a route, which the ML Boss liked. Then we went back to the top and I asked "Would you like to see how it will look in practice?" Surprised Boss says "Yes!" Yiiiipppppeeee, hammered down the route and scared the beejeesus out of them.

[joe]

The ML's course sure sounds formidable - will have to catch up with this chap at work to ask him if he went thru it ! Is that course only open to Marines, or is it open to all of UKSF (ie. SAS)?

Regarding folk staying in the Regt once thru Jungle; I recall a rather funny story told to me by a member of 23. Apparently some bod who had only just passed Selection for 23 managed to get himself chucked out after only a couple of months! It was around the time of the 50th birthday celebrations for the Regt, and this guy (read asshole!) went along to one of the parties wearing a winged dagger on his chest that was about the size of an A4 piece of paper!! Needless to say, he managed to make a fool of himself, and it was quickly decided that he was a Walter Mitty and they got him booted out ! I guess you always have to apply the 10% rule .......

[gash-hand]

Hi Joe,

As far as I am aware you have to be a Marine or SF to apply for ML course.

Thing is SF selection is run so they can have a look at you to see if you have the potential to fit in. So selection won't actually teach you all that more than you know already - obviously once in you'll be taught all sorts. A bit like passing your driving test - you only really learn to drive when you've passed it.

With ML they need someone to come off the course and get straight on with the job - so its not just about doing things, its learning and assimulating that information as well, obviously you'll still pick up stuff long after but its more like being a driving instructure - you can already drive but you need to extend you capabilities.

[exvmremf]

I thought the Clerks course was the toughest, so tough that you couldn't even get blokes to volunteer for it. Mind you I do believe that it was virtually impossible to get RTU'd once pinged!!

[qcnr]

In my opinion every member of the british forces is a member of the "Special Forces"
Simply because everyone has a job that is specific and that the whole is a sum of its parts.
You couldnt have a Royal Marine without the Navy
You couldnt have the Navy without navigators
You couldnt have the RAF without groundcrew
You couldnt have the Army without the Raf (air support)
ETC
The fact is some units are simply more specialized than others, and therefor require a different kind of person.
You couldnt get a payclerk to be a bootneck and it is nearly impossible the other way around.
PING...

[TheCount]

Personally I never think this row will create as much friction as the Classic

Count Vs Prez argument

[Sticky Blue]

Joe... Not start a pi**ing contest! I tire of 'My dad's bigger than your dad'. They ALL do the job... the jobs are different in many ways

Count... THIN ICE! Do not upset his hollyness, he is in high places with freinds! One look and you will be infested with plagues to your genitals!

[Cobalt]

In Maj Phil Ashby's book 'Unscathed', he describes the ML course in a good bit of detail. It sounds... hard. [/i]

[El Prez]

From the docu on the course, they showed day 1 down here on the Cornish cliffs. One assembled on the cliff and an instructor stepped cheerily off the cliff and onto a promontory, like the Old Man of Hoy, approx 10' out and 6' down, no rope no safety belt.. The candidates were required to copy him except they were roped.
How to find out on the first day if the blokes have any bottle.