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My tuppence worth on muslims in the UK
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Doc
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Wholley
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Doc
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I also know that iraq isnt all about terrorists, its inner fighting, shia v sunni, its about criminal gangs and its about the US intially having no policies, then when they do put one in place, they destroy the only thread of iraqi infrastructure that was left and disband thousands of armed police and military, that went from shooting stray dogs to shooting anything shiny.
In the same voice I use to condem the minority who were quoted in this and other "non-muslim" threads, I condem the US for trying to instill US democracy into a vastly culturally different country with deeply buried internal issues only buried by a dictator. Freedom has allowed old issues to be resurfaced and the lack of structure and understanding has allowed murder and mayhem sweep across the cradle of humanity.
The British squaddie worked with the iraqis to safeguard a future of their choosing, the 18 year old US national guardsman was allowed to empty a mag and call in air support.
In the same voice I use to condem the minority who were quoted in this and other "non-muslim" threads, I condem the US for trying to instill US democracy into a vastly culturally different country with deeply buried internal issues only buried by a dictator. Freedom has allowed old issues to be resurfaced and the lack of structure and understanding has allowed murder and mayhem sweep across the cradle of humanity.
The British squaddie worked with the iraqis to safeguard a future of their choosing, the 18 year old US national guardsman was allowed to empty a mag and call in air support.
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flighty
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Rogue Chef
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London Boy
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By playing the islamaphobia,racist,nationalist card you're trying to take thefocus off the main issue here,which is the whole concept of Muslims in the UK be they British born or migrants, wanting to impose Sharia law and at the same time not obeying various pieces of British legislation, for example NHS regulations.flighty wrote:
Has Islamophobia taken over the forum?
How much do any of you have to do with the Muslim community on a day to day basis?
Jayne
It has nothing to do with how much or little any of us has spent or spends in a Muslim community, where the vast majority obey the law.
I don't need to spend time in a Muslim community to be able to read/listen to the news about Arhcbishops supporting Sharia law, about Muslim medical students presenting a hygiene risk, about the Muslim council sitting as Star Chamber over its "own"
The thing is you see, they aren't the Muslim council's "own" they are living in the UK. And as such should only be subject to British law.
My views have to do with common sense and respect not xenophobia.
Just my tuppence worth. When I worked in the City I took time out to 'mentor' kids at Bethnal Green Technical College. All the of the lads that I used to meet were muslims of Bangladeshi origin. I managed to get one of them a job in the end which was great.
Nice lads but they didn't share my values at all. All they seemed to be interested in was status, wealth and possessions....affluenza. Perhaps that was why they worked so hard. The scheme coordinator explained that the real problem at the college was white working class boys being sidelined and often having no decent role models or motivation. I think he was wrong - there's every bit as much value in being a taxi driver, bin man etc. as there in is being an investment banker. We need to find our values elsewhere - in duty, community, etc rather than in possessions or status.
My gripe about the 'culture' (and their views were more predictable and homogenous that those of the non muslim kids) was that there seemed to be no sense of 'society' - truly Thatcher's children. I know that there are stacks of WASP Mail readers (that's me being idle and using shorthand) who share those values but it seemed to be more of a cultural norm with the muslim kids. They were also more culturally insular than the non muslim kids. Maybe there's a history and a good reason for that but that was the situation I walked into. They appeared to be more prone to prejudice than the others.
I have no problems with muslims as such but I've experienced an insular and aspirational culture (not just with the kids) that I couldn't warm to.
I do have problems with pikeys - from a purely cultural perspective that is.
Nice lads but they didn't share my values at all. All they seemed to be interested in was status, wealth and possessions....affluenza. Perhaps that was why they worked so hard. The scheme coordinator explained that the real problem at the college was white working class boys being sidelined and often having no decent role models or motivation. I think he was wrong - there's every bit as much value in being a taxi driver, bin man etc. as there in is being an investment banker. We need to find our values elsewhere - in duty, community, etc rather than in possessions or status.
My gripe about the 'culture' (and their views were more predictable and homogenous that those of the non muslim kids) was that there seemed to be no sense of 'society' - truly Thatcher's children. I know that there are stacks of WASP Mail readers (that's me being idle and using shorthand) who share those values but it seemed to be more of a cultural norm with the muslim kids. They were also more culturally insular than the non muslim kids. Maybe there's a history and a good reason for that but that was the situation I walked into. They appeared to be more prone to prejudice than the others.
I have no problems with muslims as such but I've experienced an insular and aspirational culture (not just with the kids) that I couldn't warm to.
I do have problems with pikeys - from a purely cultural perspective that is.
Per Flank, Per Tank
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London Boy
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That craving for affluence, status, possessions and respect (which I agree seems to be endemic in male Muslim youngsters - many of them are exactly the same in Sweden - and here I'm talking about Muslims not just from the Middle East & N Africa but also from the Balkans) might go part of the way to explaining why there are so few Muslims in the armed forces and police services in every Western European country. That plus the fact that they are indoctrinated at an early age by their parents.
I knew one Muslim chap during basic training in the RAF - he was a vegan and prayed 5 times a day- and after 6 weeks basic training was dishcarged because his diet was considered not suitable and/or sufficient for a member of the armed forces. Plus the instructors used to get really pissed off at him for haivng to disappear to pray so often. Unwilling to adapt to the norm.
During 13 years in the Met police I only met one Muslim police officer, who was at my station, and who during Saddam's invasion of Kuwait voiced his support for Iraq and Saddam and was rapidly set home on "protective leave" so that he wouldn't get his head kicked in by the rest of us, especially the ex-military amongst us. He was a right stroppy, arrogant fecker as well who just didn't know when to keep his anti-british anti-democratic views to himself -often made me wonder why he became a police officer with such rabid views. I wasn't on his relief but the guys on his relief had told him to shape up or ship out!
When he came back he was still the same and was ostracized for a long time, before he transferred. Again unwilling to adapt to the norm.
There were quite a few Sikhs and Hindus and they seemed to get on fine with the daily job.
I knew one Muslim chap during basic training in the RAF - he was a vegan and prayed 5 times a day- and after 6 weeks basic training was dishcarged because his diet was considered not suitable and/or sufficient for a member of the armed forces. Plus the instructors used to get really pissed off at him for haivng to disappear to pray so often. Unwilling to adapt to the norm.
During 13 years in the Met police I only met one Muslim police officer, who was at my station, and who during Saddam's invasion of Kuwait voiced his support for Iraq and Saddam and was rapidly set home on "protective leave" so that he wouldn't get his head kicked in by the rest of us, especially the ex-military amongst us. He was a right stroppy, arrogant fecker as well who just didn't know when to keep his anti-british anti-democratic views to himself -often made me wonder why he became a police officer with such rabid views. I wasn't on his relief but the guys on his relief had told him to shape up or ship out!
When he came back he was still the same and was ostracized for a long time, before he transferred. Again unwilling to adapt to the norm.
There were quite a few Sikhs and Hindus and they seemed to get on fine with the daily job.
Last edited by London Boy on Fri 08 Feb, 2008 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
I think the fact that the phrase "the Muslim community" has been used says it all. I tried to understand it when we lived in Walthamstow and plucked up courage to ask a work colleague why there wasn't any integration. It bothered me (from a coal mining town where community was everything) that I was starting to write off a whole section of our community as far as any kind of social interaction went.
As you say the key word seemed to be muslim - not black, Pakistani, Bosnian or the rest of it. My colleague explained that there definitely was a lack of integration but a lot of it stemmed from a lack of confidence from the womenfolk who couldn't speak English. There's probably a bit more to it but it highlights another issue - the role of women in that culture. Good cooks mind
As you say the key word seemed to be muslim - not black, Pakistani, Bosnian or the rest of it. My colleague explained that there definitely was a lack of integration but a lot of it stemmed from a lack of confidence from the womenfolk who couldn't speak English. There's probably a bit more to it but it highlights another issue - the role of women in that culture. Good cooks mind
Per Flank, Per Tank
Aye, that was fairly apparent - I think a few 'financial advisers' from the community have taken a ride on that one - and who could forget BCCI? Also what you say rings true from my chats with our neighbours at the time - their white kids generally weren't welcome in muslim households - although the same seemed to be true to a lesser extent with sikh families. Bit of perspective here though mate - if I had a daughter and there was a budding squaddie sniffing around then I'd switch to Victorian father mode in short orderTrust me, they ALWAYS have one eye on the community, it's just not the community that you're in and it doesn't mean the people living next to them necessarily.
I've no particular axe to grind but given the choice of living in an obviously divided community (Walthamstow) and a more integrated one I'd go for the latter. Whose fault that is I don't know but from my experience and without going into the history of it, the muslim 'community' are at least as responsible for it as the non-muslim. Incidentally the most outspoken critic of that community that I came across was a hindu shop keeper - but I s'pose that's another story
Per Flank, Per Tank
