Find them, torture them and kill them.
Better still hand the captured hostages to the families of the bereaved.
Restorative justice.
Gore.
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Suicide bombers killing kiddies in southern Russia...
Just on the news there. Unconfirmed reports that the crowd kicked one to death.
Too quick.
Give me a couple of days in a engineering workshop..............
He will regret the industrial revolution. Electric machines which cut, tear, peel, chop and burn.
Gore.
Too quick.
Give me a couple of days in a engineering workshop..............
He will regret the industrial revolution. Electric machines which cut, tear, peel, chop and burn.
Gore.
Mexican bandit, "Badges?! We don't need no stinking badges....."
Major Kong, "Shoot, a fella could have a pretty good weekend in vegas with all that stuff....."
Gore, "The first casualty of war is your underpants....."
Major Kong, "Shoot, a fella could have a pretty good weekend in vegas with all that stuff....."
Gore, "The first casualty of war is your underpants....."
Tab was right about organisation, they should have sealed off the area and had tighter security. The parents probably would have gone apeshit though (they tried to storm the building themselves a few times!).
What hurt me the most was the little pile of bloody rags laying among the dead (obviously a slaughtered infant). That really hit a nerve for me............stoaked the fire inside.......
I wouldn't be so quick to blame the chechen people though, this looks like the work of Islamic Jihadists. The same type of Islamic people you get going off to fight in Iraq.........the same type of people that killed those 12 workers from Nepal.
If they are so keen to meet Allah I have no problem sending them to meet him.....
This was a well planned attack to create Jihad. The third world war might have started today, Putin is choosing his words *VERY* carefully I imagine - before saying anything to the world. If he officially joins Bush's 'war on terror' it could mean a great deal of trouble........
This might just be the start.......
What hurt me the most was the little pile of bloody rags laying among the dead (obviously a slaughtered infant). That really hit a nerve for me............stoaked the fire inside.......
I wouldn't be so quick to blame the chechen people though, this looks like the work of Islamic Jihadists. The same type of Islamic people you get going off to fight in Iraq.........the same type of people that killed those 12 workers from Nepal.
If they are so keen to meet Allah I have no problem sending them to meet him.....
This was a well planned attack to create Jihad. The third world war might have started today, Putin is choosing his words *VERY* carefully I imagine - before saying anything to the world. If he officially joins Bush's 'war on terror' it could mean a great deal of trouble........
This might just be the start.......
Spot on Tab.Tab wrote:Now this incident brings up many questions, well for it does.
Why was this school chosen for this form action?
Now these places are not chosen at random, so who passed on the information, and why.
Now a terrorist will die for his cause, but he prefers to live even if it is just to rub the governments nose in it. So if this is case they must have had an escape route planned.
On the Military side there was so much wrong that whole thing developed into a farce.
Why wasn't the whole area cordoned of with barb wire, with gaps in it for controlled exit.
Why wasn't there a second cordon to keep the parents back.
Where was the field hospitals incase things went pear shape
The same applies for the Fire Brigade.
Why where camera's right up the front with the troops, now you could tell at a glance what sort of troops you where facing, by looking at the APC you could see that the machine guns were not loaded or manned, there did not appear to be any other crew around them in case they where needed. Any terrorist watching television would have a pretty good idea just where he could go and what to do.
The Russian President is normally in front of the camera's like all the other politicians, but this time was missing for the whole time, I think that their Army Generals are going to take one big hit over this.
Now what about TASS the Russian News agency, well what muck up thats been,not only over this but on the two Russian airliners that crashed earlier on this week.
Its easy to blame "Arabs"(by this you mean every Arab?), we should just wait to get more info.
In hijack situations the main priority is the survival of the hostages and the secondary priority is the destruction of the terrorists. Negotiations offer the opportunity to save the hostages and to apprehend the terrorists. However when the terrorists start to kill the hostages, as in this case (no matter who fired the first shot), the complete destruction of the enemy becomes the priority as the sooner it is done the more hosteges can be saved.
However in hijack situations where the terrorists are prepared to die at any moment, the main priority becomes the destrction of the terrorists. Otherwise if negotiations fail or drag on the casualty numbers will be a lot higher. Terrorists who are prepared to die are more likely to give demands which can not be reached. If this is the case, especially with Putin who has taken an offcensive against terrorists and is unlikely to ever negotiate, action needs to be taken before sooner rather than later. Andy McNab spoke on ITV news and said that specialy forces have to work on the assumption that everyone is going to die anyway and that any recuse attempt can be considered a success if people are saved.
Negotiations must never be made with terrorists because more terrorist uprisings would take place in response to successful demands. If no negotiations take place, then the only option to take is to kill the terrorists. Terrorists make the first move by hostege taking. The only sensible reply is to kill the terrorists and save the hosteges. Lets not forget that these terrorists had already killed many people before the storming of the building.
The Russians ave said that they were prompted to go in by gunfire from the school and the explosion of a suicide bomber (which has to be treated as deliberate) therefore the situation became chaotic as they were forced to take action which was not properly planned. However, despite the chaos, I rewckon this was a success because the majority of the hosteges were saved, when the terrorists could have easily killed every single one.
It is inevitable that people will argue that if negotiations were given more time, or at least took place, the bloodshed could be prevented. However the strongest argument is that if the russians sat back and waited, the terrorists could have dstroyed the school at any time.
"Kind hearted people might of course think there was some ingenious way to disarm or defeat an enemy without too much bloodshed, and might imagine this is the true goal of the art of war. Pleasant as it sounds, it is a fallacy that must be exposed: war is such a dangerous business that the mistakes which come from kindness are the very worst." Carl von Clausewitz.
News reports say that the terrorists began to fire on children who escaped from the building when bodies were being removed by emergency services. However, I wouldnt be surprised (even though this is only a theory of mine) if it turns out that Russian Special Forces were dressed as the rescue crews so that they could gain entrance to the gym more easily and kill any terrorists inside before they clicked on to what was happening.
If the Checnyans want to fight the Russians, then they should fight soldiers who they regard as enemy as part of a cause. Anyone who targets innocent soldiers or civilians becomes a terrorist, and whatever their reason is for doing so, they must be killed.
When combating terrorists political consequences need to be disregarded since force is the only way. Politics may be used to remove the reasons for terror, but the terrorists themselves need to be destroyed. They should be caught, interrogated fully using whatever means possible and then executed. Its that simple - if you chose terror then you should die.
Politics should be used to prevent terrorist recruitment. Force must to used to prevent terrorists. Cut off the supply and destory the product.
However in hijack situations where the terrorists are prepared to die at any moment, the main priority becomes the destrction of the terrorists. Otherwise if negotiations fail or drag on the casualty numbers will be a lot higher. Terrorists who are prepared to die are more likely to give demands which can not be reached. If this is the case, especially with Putin who has taken an offcensive against terrorists and is unlikely to ever negotiate, action needs to be taken before sooner rather than later. Andy McNab spoke on ITV news and said that specialy forces have to work on the assumption that everyone is going to die anyway and that any recuse attempt can be considered a success if people are saved.
Negotiations must never be made with terrorists because more terrorist uprisings would take place in response to successful demands. If no negotiations take place, then the only option to take is to kill the terrorists. Terrorists make the first move by hostege taking. The only sensible reply is to kill the terrorists and save the hosteges. Lets not forget that these terrorists had already killed many people before the storming of the building.
The Russians ave said that they were prompted to go in by gunfire from the school and the explosion of a suicide bomber (which has to be treated as deliberate) therefore the situation became chaotic as they were forced to take action which was not properly planned. However, despite the chaos, I rewckon this was a success because the majority of the hosteges were saved, when the terrorists could have easily killed every single one.
It is inevitable that people will argue that if negotiations were given more time, or at least took place, the bloodshed could be prevented. However the strongest argument is that if the russians sat back and waited, the terrorists could have dstroyed the school at any time.
"Kind hearted people might of course think there was some ingenious way to disarm or defeat an enemy without too much bloodshed, and might imagine this is the true goal of the art of war. Pleasant as it sounds, it is a fallacy that must be exposed: war is such a dangerous business that the mistakes which come from kindness are the very worst." Carl von Clausewitz.
News reports say that the terrorists began to fire on children who escaped from the building when bodies were being removed by emergency services. However, I wouldnt be surprised (even though this is only a theory of mine) if it turns out that Russian Special Forces were dressed as the rescue crews so that they could gain entrance to the gym more easily and kill any terrorists inside before they clicked on to what was happening.
If the Checnyans want to fight the Russians, then they should fight soldiers who they regard as enemy as part of a cause. Anyone who targets innocent soldiers or civilians becomes a terrorist, and whatever their reason is for doing so, they must be killed.
When combating terrorists political consequences need to be disregarded since force is the only way. Politics may be used to remove the reasons for terror, but the terrorists themselves need to be destroyed. They should be caught, interrogated fully using whatever means possible and then executed. Its that simple - if you chose terror then you should die.
Politics should be used to prevent terrorist recruitment. Force must to used to prevent terrorists. Cut off the supply and destory the product.
The Best Is Yet To Come
KlinkKlank go to http://www.ogrish.com/index.php?class=s ... w&id=16906 (WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC) and here you will see what arabs are capable of doing.KlinkKlank wrote:Spot on Tab.Tab wrote:Now this incident brings up many questions, well for it does.
Why was this school chosen for this form action?
Now these places are not chosen at random, so who passed on the information, and why.
Now a terrorist will die for his cause, but he prefers to live even if it is just to rub the governments nose in it. So if this is case they must have had an escape route planned.
On the Military side there was so much wrong that whole thing developed into a farce.
Why wasn't the whole area cordoned of with barb wire, with gaps in it for controlled exit.
Why wasn't there a second cordon to keep the parents back.
Where was the field hospitals incase things went pear shape
The same applies for the Fire Brigade.
Why where camera's right up the front with the troops, now you could tell at a glance what sort of troops you where facing, by looking at the APC you could see that the machine guns were not loaded or manned, there did not appear to be any other crew around them in case they where needed. Any terrorist watching television would have a pretty good idea just where he could go and what to do.
The Russian President is normally in front of the camera's like all the other politicians, but this time was missing for the whole time, I think that their Army Generals are going to take one big hit over this.
Now what about TASS the Russian News agency, well what muck up thats been,not only over this but on the two Russian airliners that crashed earlier on this week.
Its easy to blame "Arabs"(by this you mean every Arab?), we should just wait to get more info.
Thats the kind of friendly people you have in Iraq. These Islam nutters need to be totally destroyed! They should send in the Gurkhas to get revenge, the savage bastards..........
Islamic, hindu, catholic, potestant, arabic, caucasian, asian, american, communist, capitalist, anarchist, republican, royalist, loyalist.........it makes no difference.
Terrorists and those who target civilians do not represent relgions, ideals or races. They kill whoever they want andas many as they can. They represent a misguided and ruthless minority who use fear as thier weapon and do not see the difference between a civilian and a combatant, a child or an adult. They deserve no rights or chances and must be annihilated whatever the means.
Different reports have said different things. Some have said that the terrorists were Checnyans, others from Ingushetia, North Ossetia, Georgia and Arabs. It doesnt matter which group they came from. All terrorists are a threat therefore they should be all immediately removed. We should not wait until one specific one strikes and then strike back at that specific group since all terrorists are potential threats. Terrorism must be destroyed globally. They chose terror, they chose death. All must be detroyed all no one will be safe. A global war on terror is against every terrorist on earth and not just the islamic ones. States should denounce terrorist organisations, put thier differences beside and unite against terrorists. Those who choose to harbour terrorists must be removed.
Terrorism is a global situation and not an internal crisis for any country. You are either a terrorist or not. Those who are not must destroy those who are.
Terrorists and those who target civilians do not represent relgions, ideals or races. They kill whoever they want andas many as they can. They represent a misguided and ruthless minority who use fear as thier weapon and do not see the difference between a civilian and a combatant, a child or an adult. They deserve no rights or chances and must be annihilated whatever the means.
Different reports have said different things. Some have said that the terrorists were Checnyans, others from Ingushetia, North Ossetia, Georgia and Arabs. It doesnt matter which group they came from. All terrorists are a threat therefore they should be all immediately removed. We should not wait until one specific one strikes and then strike back at that specific group since all terrorists are potential threats. Terrorism must be destroyed globally. They chose terror, they chose death. All must be detroyed all no one will be safe. A global war on terror is against every terrorist on earth and not just the islamic ones. States should denounce terrorist organisations, put thier differences beside and unite against terrorists. Those who choose to harbour terrorists must be removed.
Terrorism is a global situation and not an internal crisis for any country. You are either a terrorist or not. Those who are not must destroy those who are.
The Best Is Yet To Come
lew,
Before you blow a fuse i suggest you read some history to further investigate this 'crap' im talking about.
It was either zhukov or some other WWII general who made a crack about how he just steam rolls men across minefields to reach the enemy.
"A death of one is a tragedy, the death of ten million is a statistic." - Stalin
Ghenghis khan said something along the lines of "true happiness is to disembowel a man while raping his wife in front of his children"
Chairman Mau had some similarily creepy ones. Today in modern china all drug pushers, users, sellers, etc etc are exectued. In fact just about every crime is executable.
I don't need to say anything more, look up more of this 'crap' yourself buddy. No western leaders have come close.
We are not all the same and every nation has its good and bad characteristics.
Which leads to something else...
Jon,
Not every outfit is the same or has the same mindset. How can Irish Republicans and Irish loyalists have the same agenda when one is responsible for more 70% of the deaths in NI (Republicans) and yet has a MINORITY population??
Btw, i find it pretty cute how everyone is outraged about this incident and yet just the other day some Palestinian terrorists blew up a busload of 16 Israeli CHILDREN. Oh well, they're oppressive zionists, they don't count...
Before you blow a fuse i suggest you read some history to further investigate this 'crap' im talking about.
It was either zhukov or some other WWII general who made a crack about how he just steam rolls men across minefields to reach the enemy.
"A death of one is a tragedy, the death of ten million is a statistic." - Stalin
Ghenghis khan said something along the lines of "true happiness is to disembowel a man while raping his wife in front of his children"
Chairman Mau had some similarily creepy ones. Today in modern china all drug pushers, users, sellers, etc etc are exectued. In fact just about every crime is executable.
I don't need to say anything more, look up more of this 'crap' yourself buddy. No western leaders have come close.
We are not all the same and every nation has its good and bad characteristics.
Which leads to something else...
Jon,
Not every outfit is the same or has the same mindset. How can Irish Republicans and Irish loyalists have the same agenda when one is responsible for more 70% of the deaths in NI (Republicans) and yet has a MINORITY population??
Btw, i find it pretty cute how everyone is outraged about this incident and yet just the other day some Palestinian terrorists blew up a busload of 16 Israeli CHILDREN. Oh well, they're oppressive zionists, they don't count...
It does not matter how many lives you take. Kill innocents and you should be killed.
I was outraged by the bus bombings in Israel, but cant talk about every incident that happens and its a rare occasion that 1,500 est. people are taken hostege in a school. Appauling as they may be, suicide bombings in the middle east are more frequent and do not cause the shock that the seige has produced. Ive read about the experiences of families who have lost loved ones in Israel and they deeply move me, but at the same time I understand the conditions faced by the Palestinians and the reasons for joining terrorist groups. I do not know enough to chose which cause to sympathise with most but I do know that Israelis are murdered, as are Palestinians. In the ME situation I am for peace not for continued fighting. However when Checnyan terrorists take over a school and kill innocents I am not going to opoose the Russians am I?
I was outraged by the bus bombings in Israel, but cant talk about every incident that happens and its a rare occasion that 1,500 est. people are taken hostege in a school. Appauling as they may be, suicide bombings in the middle east are more frequent and do not cause the shock that the seige has produced. Ive read about the experiences of families who have lost loved ones in Israel and they deeply move me, but at the same time I understand the conditions faced by the Palestinians and the reasons for joining terrorist groups. I do not know enough to chose which cause to sympathise with most but I do know that Israelis are murdered, as are Palestinians. In the ME situation I am for peace not for continued fighting. However when Checnyan terrorists take over a school and kill innocents I am not going to opoose the Russians am I?
The Best Is Yet To Come
Nope,
Not suggesting you go against the russians, wouldn't ever suggest that. Im with everyone here on that they should be dealt with harshly...and taking in a little russian modern history into account...it will be harsh!!
Someone also mentioned the War on Terrorism and russias role in that.
I personally don't think you'll see russia walking lock step with the US on anything, not after blow after blow to their pride through the last 20 years or so...also bringing into account the recent kick to the nads in relation to kosovo.
I think you'll see putin pay lipservice to the idea of a War on Terrorism, but exectuing through russias own way.
Along with other notable exceptions to agreement (no fruits in forces, etc), on this one i cast my vote with the majority
Not suggesting you go against the russians, wouldn't ever suggest that. Im with everyone here on that they should be dealt with harshly...and taking in a little russian modern history into account...it will be harsh!!
Someone also mentioned the War on Terrorism and russias role in that.
I personally don't think you'll see russia walking lock step with the US on anything, not after blow after blow to their pride through the last 20 years or so...also bringing into account the recent kick to the nads in relation to kosovo.
I think you'll see putin pay lipservice to the idea of a War on Terrorism, but exectuing through russias own way.
Along with other notable exceptions to agreement (no fruits in forces, etc), on this one i cast my vote with the majority
Its more like this:"A man's greatest moment in life is when his enemy lays vanquished, his village aflame, his herds driven before you and his weeping wives and daughters are clasped to your breast."Redhand wrote:Ghenghis khan said something along the lines of "true happiness is to disembowel a man while raping his wife in front of his children"
- Genghis Kahn
-
Guest
- Guest
Someone said earlier in this thread, or alluded to, the Russians having less regard for human life than 'us' ........ I wouldn't agree that they have less regard but they do have a very different culture. The culture of secrecy in Russia is insidious and long-standing. The truth rarely comes out about anything, let alone about these kind of situations. Take the Theatre Siege, many facts about that siege have remained 'closed' and are still unreported.
Also, I don't think that the SF 'botch' things up but, again, they have a very different approach. Over here, in the Iranian Embassy siege for example, there are complicated rules to follow...... for example when the Police hand things over to the military, SF or otherwise, they have to do that in a very structured manner, it doesn't just happen by accident and there are specific legal rules and guidelines which must be adhered to. The use of CS gas by the SAS in the Iranian Embassy siege caused quite a bit of consternation amongst some groups in the U.K. and the use of something like, for example, BZ gas (over here) would almost definitely be a no-no for all kinds of moral and military reasons.
There used to be a situation in Northern Ireland a few years ago (which may not be true now, I don't know) whereby U.K. SF were not allowed to open fire on someone (even known 'terrorists') unless they had first seen the other person's weapon. So, even when they KNEW that the other person was carrying a weapon and would have no hesitation in using it against them, technically speaking, their rules stated that they could NOT fire on somone unless they had first seen an opposing weapon. I remember a story, very clearly, of a U.K. SF operation where a car had been stopped, carrying someone well-known to have committed 'terrorist' acts, this person had a newspaper on their lap and under the newspaper, they clearly had a gun. The U.K. SF person was unable to take 'preventive' measures until he had physically SEEN the gun. Of course the 'terrorists' got to know this and this rule was used against the U.K. SF on many occasions. This would never happen in Russia, they just do not have the same levels of accountability. Also, over here we are not used to the military becoming involved in our daily lives, in Russia they are certainly more used to that happening.
The other thing to bear in mind is that Vladimir Putin used to be the head of the old FSB (Federal Security Bureau) under the KGB and so his methods are engrained in him, his approach is very much that of the 'old-style' Russian approach. Nothing particuarly wrong with it but there is not the same kind of accountability that we would have over here (or, at least, that we would expect to have over here.)
The other thing is that when Putin first came to power he did so on a ticket of safety and security for the Russian people. In fact, he told them that the Chechnyan war was over, which was clearly untrue. The Russian public only began to realise the reality when their sons were sent back in Chechnya by Putin. Until that point, the people had genuinely believed him as they had, in general, little (if any, in many cases) access to any other information (at that time). I see that the European Union has now made a statement condemning the hostage-takers but also asking, in quite forthright terms, exactly what Putin is planning on doing about Chechnya. Hostage-taking is clearly abhorent and totally wrong, but the Russian 'policy' towards Chechnya is not exactly free from any blame.
The whole situation is dreadful and extremely depressing. These hostage-takings will go on, people will become more polarised and goodness knows where it will all end.
Also, I don't think that the SF 'botch' things up but, again, they have a very different approach. Over here, in the Iranian Embassy siege for example, there are complicated rules to follow...... for example when the Police hand things over to the military, SF or otherwise, they have to do that in a very structured manner, it doesn't just happen by accident and there are specific legal rules and guidelines which must be adhered to. The use of CS gas by the SAS in the Iranian Embassy siege caused quite a bit of consternation amongst some groups in the U.K. and the use of something like, for example, BZ gas (over here) would almost definitely be a no-no for all kinds of moral and military reasons.
There used to be a situation in Northern Ireland a few years ago (which may not be true now, I don't know) whereby U.K. SF were not allowed to open fire on someone (even known 'terrorists') unless they had first seen the other person's weapon. So, even when they KNEW that the other person was carrying a weapon and would have no hesitation in using it against them, technically speaking, their rules stated that they could NOT fire on somone unless they had first seen an opposing weapon. I remember a story, very clearly, of a U.K. SF operation where a car had been stopped, carrying someone well-known to have committed 'terrorist' acts, this person had a newspaper on their lap and under the newspaper, they clearly had a gun. The U.K. SF person was unable to take 'preventive' measures until he had physically SEEN the gun. Of course the 'terrorists' got to know this and this rule was used against the U.K. SF on many occasions. This would never happen in Russia, they just do not have the same levels of accountability. Also, over here we are not used to the military becoming involved in our daily lives, in Russia they are certainly more used to that happening.
The other thing to bear in mind is that Vladimir Putin used to be the head of the old FSB (Federal Security Bureau) under the KGB and so his methods are engrained in him, his approach is very much that of the 'old-style' Russian approach. Nothing particuarly wrong with it but there is not the same kind of accountability that we would have over here (or, at least, that we would expect to have over here.)
The other thing is that when Putin first came to power he did so on a ticket of safety and security for the Russian people. In fact, he told them that the Chechnyan war was over, which was clearly untrue. The Russian public only began to realise the reality when their sons were sent back in Chechnya by Putin. Until that point, the people had genuinely believed him as they had, in general, little (if any, in many cases) access to any other information (at that time). I see that the European Union has now made a statement condemning the hostage-takers but also asking, in quite forthright terms, exactly what Putin is planning on doing about Chechnya. Hostage-taking is clearly abhorent and totally wrong, but the Russian 'policy' towards Chechnya is not exactly free from any blame.
The whole situation is dreadful and extremely depressing. These hostage-takings will go on, people will become more polarised and goodness knows where it will all end.
