"The Rites of Passage"

[Guest]

yup, it is some wierd... like humanity...
Rites of Passage generally involve some bearing of physical/mental stress & pain...to prove one's ability/worth to become a 'full-adult' with entry-level responsibilities/priviledges/status. I don't think 'school' fits the definition in a tribal way, but HAS come to be one of the ways we see in modern society. I don't believe personally that it is sufficient somehow. As heavy as this opinion is, I think blood and sacrifice on a personal level (both psychological and physical) IS. ..... Comments?

[snyder]

Herky, you have a strong belief in a need for a physical rite of passage. I can understand and to a significant degree sympathize and agree. Where I'd part company is on your evident need for a common rite of passage. One of the reasons we have freedom is because we aren't obliged to do everything in common. It's messy, unruly and looks weak and disorganized, but I think it's remarkable to watch what happens when free people come under threat.

[Guest]

... ok, but what I am looking for is what kind of training, then RITES do we have to prepare kids for being an intelligent citizen... ? Able to think critically? Educated and willing to stand up ...

Ok, I think I follow Herc. Let me turn down my jackass level.

As a culture, I do not think "we" have one. And that is as broad as most of WEstern culture. And I am thinking as it stands now, that is not such a bad thing, because in some respects, the folks who call us names aint that far off the mark in calling US the great satan.

If we had a uniformally mass common value/culture I don't think most of us would like what it contained. Some pretty bad stuff is pretty common in our culture, and that became the common ethos . . . . whew, no place to run, no place to hide.

As far as small groups and individuals, my bias is the book of Proverbs as a start. That is an excellent training device in ethics and responsible behavior for young men (and women). That was what Solomon developed it for.

It even starts . . . .

THE proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
4 To give subtlety to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
9 For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.
10 My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.

Baby girl and me (and number #2, due later this month) are going to spend some SERIOUS daddy time reading that stuff together. Dick and Jane reader my butt. Quality stuff on this dinner table.

But that is only a start. Like you guys were saying farming, ranching (and most other family business) can be great training tools, as well. Started into family farming myself at 14. Pretty good life lessons. Think it will be the same for my kids. They want college money? They are going to earn in the family business.

It seems the kids who are really screwed are the ones who are born into defective family value systems. But that is a whole other topic.[/code]

Yup, I agree. Good answer. the kids who come from defective families in 3rd world cultures often die, or are left out for nature to take...in whatever form that arrives in...

[Artist]

Sorry but this "Rites of Passage" palaver just flys past me.

I joined the Royal Marines, did my Commando Course, Earned my Green Lid. And joined my first unit. At no time did I ever feel that I needed a Rites Of Passage. 31 years later I still have no need for it.

What is the point of it? Your Oppos either accept you or they don't. Anybody who has earned a Green Lid I hope knows what I mean. I have seen a documentary where Blokes on completing the US forces para course have the Badge hammered into their chests! Whooperdee Whooo!

I did the Para course and sewed the wings onto my kit. maybe the 3000mile pond makes a big difference but I have never been or indeed want to be Gung Ho about my past career. I was a Bootneck as were a lot of the other guys on the forum. We just did it without any Hassle or sounding of. We just know who we are.

Artist

[Guest]

Sorry but this "Rites of Passage" palaver just flys past me.

I joined the Royal Marines, did my Commando Course, Earned my Green Lid. And joined my first unit. At no time did I ever feel that I needed a Rites Of Passage. 31 years later I still have no need for it.

What is the point of it? Your Oppos either accept you or they don't.... but I have never been or indeed want to be Gung Ho about my past career. I was a Bootneck as were a lot of the other guys on the forum. We just did it without any Hassle or sounding off. We just know who we are....

Artist

I can understand that, and think the same way. If I talk about where I been and what-done, it's cause we're not from the same sheet of music and I'd kinda like y'all to see a little more clearly where I'm comin from. I've been goin over lotsa posts to see the same about you folks. It's just that in my travels, I've bumped into a lot of anthropologists who were researching the subject ... and got interested... now don't give me a hard time er I'll take ya up ta 3000 feet and throw yer booty ta the winds...

[snyder]

Herky, so you know: I've been in discussion mode here, not attack mode. Just trying to see it from all sides, o.k.? I respect your point of view and share it to some extent, and that's not a throwaway line. Maybe a different way to formulate at least part of the viewpoint you've expressed is to say that young people have a need to feel as if they are a part of something greater than themselves. It's part of the growing-up process.

[Guest]

Herky, so you know: I've been in discussion mode here, not attack mode. Just trying to see it from all sides, o.k.? I respect your point of view and share it to some extent, and that's not a throwaway line. Maybe a different way to formulate at least part of the viewpoint you've expressed is to say that young people have a need to feel as if they are a part of something greater than themselves. It's part of the growing-up process.

...I understand what you mean. I think Rites of Passage is really pretty much that! As humans, I think we all want and need to belong somewhere to some group... to be part of a tribe... But how to find your tribe these days... that's the kicker!... seems to me that most folks end up belonging to the... 'We're the Fug-ah-we'... tribe by default. And that ain't much of a tribe to belong to.

[Redhand]

If i may,

I can see what your saying Herc...and i agree. Though what i've been trying to say is we HAD a unifying theme in the West, and it's been systematically scrubbed out by ideologues (sp?). You really don't have to reach back that far either.

And im sorry if i offend agnostic/atheist sensibilities...but that theme was religion. If you read your history books (which im sure you all have) you can't miss the part where its clear that loss of religion caused division which in turn caused...obvious...loss of unity.

We are showing tell tale signs of a civillization on it's way out the window, i personally believe its inevitable. And like some of the good chaps on here have said, they can only shelter their loved ones from the onslaught and raise them in a good light.

I'm also curious about all this freedom talk, freedom this and freedom that. As the active/retired service men will know, freedom isn't free. What unifier is thier in this 'freedom' anyway. Your kidding youself if you think that one man can read his Bible his to his family at night while in turn his neighbour can have a homosexaul affair. The two are diametrically opposed, it's irrational and illogical to think that such things can exist in harmony (indeffinitely atleast) and have a prosperous society.

[snyder]

We HAD a unifying theme in the West, and it's been systematically scrubbed out by ideologues (sp?). You really don't have to reach back that far either. And im sorry if i offend agnostic/atheist sensibilities, but that theme was religion. If you read your history books (which im sure you all have) you can't miss the part where its clear that loss of religion caused division which in turn caused ... obvious ... loss of unity.

I guess I'm an agnostic but my understanding of religion would support your point. I see religion as a means of placing certain questions beyond debate, which is another way of identifying them as "unifying themes." I would further argue that the West isn't quite as irreligious as you believe it to be, Redhand. I think Christian ethics are alive and well, even if some of the more proscriptive elements are not. I'm a good example of this. Agnostic yes, but Catholic through and through when it comes to the values that shape my life. Right down to the constant guilt.

I'm also curious about all this freedom talk, freedom this and freedom that. As the active/retired service men will know, freedom isn't free. What unifier is thier in this 'freedom' anyway.

I think the ability to live the way you want to live is a powerful unifier. But that's just me, I guess. Incidentally, it's the hatred of freedom that unifies groups like al-Qaeda. It drives those people absolutely crazy that, in the West, we're free to tell the local mullah to go stuff it. Frankly, I think they're jealous.

Your kidding youself if you think that one man can read his Bible his to his family at night while in turn his neighbour can have a homosexaul affair. The two are diametrically opposed, it's irrational and illogical to think that such things can exist in harmony (indeffinitely atleast) and have a prosperous society.

Let's accept for purposes of argument that homosexuality is a sin, if not against God then at least against the aesthetic sensibilities of the overwhelming majority. (At least male homosexuality, that is, because most men find female homosexuality intriguing if accompanied by beauty and a movie camera. ) Well, there are a lot of sins in the naked city, two of the most commonly seen being divorce and rampant greed. Yet we somehow manage to live with these. Indeed, many of our most successful ministers are divorced and rampantly greedy. But who do people complain about? The two guys next door whose yard looks better than theirs does.

Oh well, as the Kinks put it: Gotta stand and face it/Life is so complicated

[Redhand]

I can see yer point synder, well taken.

The part where i disagree with you would be on

1. I personally believe that Islam views us as decadent and hedonistic, and thus, deserving of eventual takeover and/or obliteration. We've all said on these forums that Islam hasn't changed since it's inception. Well...if that is the case...then that would help my case. When they attacked Constantinople it was for the glory of Islam and the vanquishing of infidel Holy Sites. Islam has been the aggressor since it's inception, all this rubbish of how the naughty, evil crusaders started it all is beyond me, once i read the history.

2. I think the issue of homosexuality is raised in light of Christian ethics so often is due to it's nature. Greed and other vice has been around for as long as man has, likewise, i imagine, so have homosexuals. But only in late 20th going into 21st century, has it been passed off as normal or a 'lifestyle'. It's brazeness is simply a sign of what has seriously gone wrong in the West. Even in Rome, where towards the end, orgies of all natures took place, it was never passed as 'normal', it was vice, and they knew it.

[Ardennes44]

1. I personally believe that Islam views us as decadent and hedonistic, and thus, deserving of eventual takeover and/or obliteration. We've all said on these forums that Islam hasn't changed since it's inception. Well...if that is the case...then that would help my case. When they attacked Constantinople it was for the glory of Islam and the vanquishing of infidel Holy Sites. Islam has been the aggressor since it's inception, all this rubbish of how the naughty, evil crusaders started it all is beyond me, once i read the history.

Astonishingly, 63 years ago, when Islam lay dormant under the heel of Western empires, a famous Catholic writer predicted Islam would rise again. Wrote Hillaire Belloc: "It has always seemed to me ... probable, that there would be a resurrection of Islam and that our sons or our grandsons would see the renewal of that tremendous struggle between the Christian culture and what has been for more than a thousand years its greatest opponent

[buford]

I'm no anthropologist, but don't all tribes have strong rituals to mark most milestones through the lifespan? That way everyone known who they are and where they fit in. Perhaps one of the strongest human needs...belonging.

Speaking of pain, in the Australian Aboriginies, the rite of passage into manhood involved the ritual removal of the foreskin, with a (hopefully) sharp flint. Is that a collective wince from the forum? Sorry guys.

In Victorian England (I am being heavily influenced by Jane Austin here), wasn't the rite of passage for women about moulding them into demure and obedient vessels for wifedom and breeding?

[snyder]

Greed and other vice has been around for as long as man has, likewise, i imagine, so have homosexuals. But only in late 20th going into 21st century, has it been passed off as normal or a 'lifestyle'. It's brazeness is simply a sign of what has seriously gone wrong in the West.

I totally agree. We live in incredibly greedy times. Our contemporary princes demand a lifestyle that would have condemned the kings of earlier times to today's struggling lower-middle classes. Oh, and our divorce rate is a whole lot higher than it used to be, too. Henry VIII notwithstanding.

[Artist]

Hercs Mate

30,0000feet? What a HALO? Your to kind dear sir far to kind.

As for tribes.......Yes can see what you mean. The tribes in the UK kicked off last Saturday. Football Supporters. (Soccer to you gentleman and ladies from the other side of the pond)

You see a 300 pound 5' 6" for want of a better word BLOB proudly wearing his soccer teams shirt along with thousands of others whos lives revolve round "The Team". I don't mind really but some of them take it to the extremes of stupidity. There have been numourous cases where the Game comes second and the whole object of going to a Soccer match revolves round beating the sh*t out of anybody whos wearing the oppositions colours.

Very tribal but also very worrying. I suppose the nearest anology in the States would be the Gangs found in the cities. Normally consisting of blokes with no real chance of breaking out of the mould they have found themselves stuck in.

In both cases the thing that does break down this "Them and Us" mentality is the Armed forces. Regardless of race, creed, or colour you have to work together. Otherwise your going to come second in the Firefight.

Artist

[Ardennes44]

I'm no anthropologist, but don't all tribes have strong rituals to mark most milestones through the lifespan? That way everyone known who they are and where they fit in. Perhaps one of the strongest human needs...belonging.

Speaking of pain, in the Australian Aboriginies, the rite of passage into manhood involved the ritual removal of the foreskin, with a (hopefully) sharp flint. Is that a collective wince from the forum? Sorry guys.

In Victorian England (I am being heavily influenced by Jane Austin here), wasn't the rite of passage for women about moulding them into demure and obedient vessels for wifedom and breeding?

I agree, Buford. Do you remember "coming out" parties? It was a relic of the time when girls "came out" of the huts where they had been imprisoned, and were offered in marriage to the highest bidder, the best hunter, or the man betrothed in infancy, according to the custom of the people.
Coming out of the hut symbolized to early peoples the putting away of the old life of childhood and sexlessness, and the taking up of the new life of young womanhood and its responsibilities.
In primitive life, we find that it was the custom to prepare youth for their mutual relations in later life. Girls were instructed in matters of importance concerning marriage and motherhood, while the boys were instructed in all the secrets of tribal history and religion, and the cherished tribal myths and legends were related to them. Tests of endurance were imposed upon the boys. Among certain peoples, they were beaten; among others they were obliged to fast for long periods. In some tribes, as you mentioned, mutilation was fairly common. May be a finger would be cut off, or a tooth or two knocked out. It seems that they believed that to remove or sacrifice one part of the body was to purify the whole.
I understand that among Aborigines, it is (or was) forbidden for a youth to marry until after the ceremonies of initiation have been concluded. He is (was) given instructions regarding his future duties.
In our western world today, societies are imploding. The marriage unit which is the backbone of society is fragmented in most places. Parents spend little or no time raising their children, nourishing them, educating them, and guiding them. Globalism is moving across the planet, erasing cultures, customs, and roots. The result is that we have an awful lot of young people out there who wander aimlessly through life, grasping at straws, trying to find some sense of meaning to their existence.
I don`t know, it`s just my opinion. Does it make sense?