I was sponsored by the RLC to go to sandhurst. And I was invited down to deepcut for a familarisation visit. The Major in charge of dealing with the press was given a chance to tell us all how they were definatly ALL suicides and there was absolutly no chance of foul play. When I asked if it was acceptable to have such a high rate of serious mental breakdowns in the junior ranks, he made up some bollocks about how the rates of mental illness were actually less than average in the military. and promptly left.
I then declined my offer of a place at sandhurst.
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Deepcut Barracks
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Spannerman
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Early Day Motion 63 taken from the House of Commons website:-
63 ARMY DEATHS 13:11:02
Mr Kevin McNamara
Annabelle Ewing
Lembit Öpik
Simon Hughes
Dr Evan Harris
Andrew George
* 201
Mr Nigel Beard Mr David Atkinson
That this House expresses its sadness that more than 1,748 members of Her Majesty's armed forces have lost their lives through non-natural causes since 1990 and sends condolences to all their families; notes that almost 200 deaths have been caused by discharge of firearms and further that some 200 are described as self-inflicted; notes the growing public perception that the Ministry of Defence response to these deaths is inadequate and distressing to the bereaved; applauds the courage and determination of the friends and families of Sean Benton, James Collinson, Geoff Gray and Cheryl James who died at Deepcut barracks in Surrey; and of Paul Cochrane, Ross Collins, Richard Donkin, Tony Green, Dale Little, Aled Martin Jones, Alfie Manship, Gary Riches, Richard Robertson, Alan Sharples, David Shipley and Christopher Young who have subsequently come forward to make public their own grievances and frustrations at the hands of the military authorities; believes the Army has a duty of care and protection towards all personnel, particularly young soldiers; believes that the culture of secrecy surrounding the varied cause of these deaths must give way to greater transparency; believes that the environment in which these deaths continue to occur and the absence of a system for prompt, effective and independent investigation of deaths has led to a breakdown in public confidence that can only be restored through a full and independent public inquiry; and urges the Government to establish a tribunal of inquiry without delay.
63 ARMY DEATHS 13:11:02
Mr Kevin McNamara
Annabelle Ewing
Lembit Öpik
Simon Hughes
Dr Evan Harris
Andrew George
* 201
Mr Nigel Beard Mr David Atkinson
That this House expresses its sadness that more than 1,748 members of Her Majesty's armed forces have lost their lives through non-natural causes since 1990 and sends condolences to all their families; notes that almost 200 deaths have been caused by discharge of firearms and further that some 200 are described as self-inflicted; notes the growing public perception that the Ministry of Defence response to these deaths is inadequate and distressing to the bereaved; applauds the courage and determination of the friends and families of Sean Benton, James Collinson, Geoff Gray and Cheryl James who died at Deepcut barracks in Surrey; and of Paul Cochrane, Ross Collins, Richard Donkin, Tony Green, Dale Little, Aled Martin Jones, Alfie Manship, Gary Riches, Richard Robertson, Alan Sharples, David Shipley and Christopher Young who have subsequently come forward to make public their own grievances and frustrations at the hands of the military authorities; believes the Army has a duty of care and protection towards all personnel, particularly young soldiers; believes that the culture of secrecy surrounding the varied cause of these deaths must give way to greater transparency; believes that the environment in which these deaths continue to occur and the absence of a system for prompt, effective and independent investigation of deaths has led to a breakdown in public confidence that can only be restored through a full and independent public inquiry; and urges the Government to establish a tribunal of inquiry without delay.
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Spannerman
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Let's see how the MoD gets out of this one....................
Published: 24-Dec-2003; 10:52
By: ITN
At least three soldiers who died at Deepcut barracks did not commit suicide, a report into their deaths has found.
Forensic expert Frank Swann has revealed the full findings of his investigation into four deaths.
Sean Benton, 20, Cheryl James, 18, Geoff Gray, 17 and James Collinson, 17, died from gunshot wounds at the Surrey barracks.
Mr Swann discovered that Mr Benton, Miss James and Mr Gray could not have killed themselves.
But his findings on the death of Mr Collinson, who died in March 2002, were inconclusive.
The report concluded that James, from Llangollen, in north Wales, was trying to push the gun away from her face when she was shot at the barracks, in Surrey.
Mr Swann, who was hired independently to investigate the deaths for the families, said: "It is my expert opinion based on the evidence, the nature of the wounds and the tests and experiments that I carried out that Private Cheryl James did not self-inflict the bullet wound that killed her."
Her father Des James said: "There are so many unanswered questions for our family and until we have them answered we cannot put this behind us.
"This is the first expert witness who has told me that Cheryl's death was not self-inflicted.
"But the police say there were no third parties involved. It just does not make sense.
"If this does not call for a public inquiry, then I do not know what does."
The report also found that the injuries sustained by Benton, who died in June 1995 from five gunshot wounds and Gray, who was shot dead in September 2002, were physically impossible for them to inflict on themselves.
The report has now been passed to the Surrey Coroner.
Source ITN London 24th December 03
Published: 24-Dec-2003; 10:52
By: ITN
At least three soldiers who died at Deepcut barracks did not commit suicide, a report into their deaths has found.
Forensic expert Frank Swann has revealed the full findings of his investigation into four deaths.
Sean Benton, 20, Cheryl James, 18, Geoff Gray, 17 and James Collinson, 17, died from gunshot wounds at the Surrey barracks.
Mr Swann discovered that Mr Benton, Miss James and Mr Gray could not have killed themselves.
But his findings on the death of Mr Collinson, who died in March 2002, were inconclusive.
The report concluded that James, from Llangollen, in north Wales, was trying to push the gun away from her face when she was shot at the barracks, in Surrey.
Mr Swann, who was hired independently to investigate the deaths for the families, said: "It is my expert opinion based on the evidence, the nature of the wounds and the tests and experiments that I carried out that Private Cheryl James did not self-inflict the bullet wound that killed her."
Her father Des James said: "There are so many unanswered questions for our family and until we have them answered we cannot put this behind us.
"This is the first expert witness who has told me that Cheryl's death was not self-inflicted.
"But the police say there were no third parties involved. It just does not make sense.
"If this does not call for a public inquiry, then I do not know what does."
The report also found that the injuries sustained by Benton, who died in June 1995 from five gunshot wounds and Gray, who was shot dead in September 2002, were physically impossible for them to inflict on themselves.
The report has now been passed to the Surrey Coroner.
Source ITN London 24th December 03
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Spannerman
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Just bringing this to the top again after todays Surrey Police Report.
I haven't read this 27 page report in its entirety yet but it seems pretty damning on the Ministry of Defence, even the Defence Minister Mr Adam Ingram MP said to this effect on ITV today.
On the face of it £1 million has been spent over a 12 month period on a 5th report by the Surrey police, why is it this force have had to highlight this problem and not a Select Committee of MPs or even the MoD itself?
I haven't read this 27 page report in its entirety yet but it seems pretty damning on the Ministry of Defence, even the Defence Minister Mr Adam Ingram MP said to this effect on ITV today.
On the face of it £1 million has been spent over a 12 month period on a 5th report by the Surrey police, why is it this force have had to highlight this problem and not a Select Committee of MPs or even the MoD itself?
What ever inquiries they hold I can't see them getting to bottom of all this at Deepcut Barracks and at the end of the day they will not be much wiser.
The one thing that strikes me that they join the army to become soldiers but when listen to all the reports on Television and the radio they have become children. Is this some thing that the press are working on to try and make things sound so much worse, and how is they that they are child soldiers or is it just me.
The next thing I can see happening that every one will want our forces become tree huggers and peace niks who won't be issued with any thing that might hurt them or some else, even sharp pencils to be banned along with boot laces and belts incase they do them selfs some harm.
The one thing that strikes me that they join the army to become soldiers but when listen to all the reports on Television and the radio they have become children. Is this some thing that the press are working on to try and make things sound so much worse, and how is they that they are child soldiers or is it just me.
The next thing I can see happening that every one will want our forces become tree huggers and peace niks who won't be issued with any thing that might hurt them or some else, even sharp pencils to be banned along with boot laces and belts incase they do them selfs some harm.
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Spannerman
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Tab
I am very aware of the circumstances relating to Deepcut and Catterick barracks, I am one of the campaigners for a judicial review into some of the deaths, if that isn't already obvious.
The facts are that the MoD have established that there are 1.5 times more deaths (rather than suicides) in the Forces (Especially so the Army) than in civilian life.
After yesterdays announcement by Assistant Chief Constable Bob Quick of the Surrey Police the wheels have been put into motion for a Defence Select Committee of MP's to hold yet another Inquiry.
The culture in our days in the Forces are far different to what they are today, we accepted the harsh but fair regime, that was part and parcel of life, I never experienced bullying in any form. Today you only have to see the bullyboys in school, in comparison to days of yore, the road rage, shopping trolley rage, general attitudes to each other and against the law and establishment. The whole scene has changed in life and in my opinion not for the better, today we have the quantity of life where in our day we had the quality of life.
If my son/grandson had joined the Army and then shot himself in the head/chest more than once then I too would be knocking on someones door asking some very pertinent questions like these fathers are doing. No one is suggesting that all 1800 died in this way over 14 years because we know this isn't so but there are some who have died in very mysterious circumstances that cannot be explained and it is for these soldiers that we are fighting for justice and to ensure such tragedies do not come back to haunt some other unfortunate family in the future.
I am very aware of the circumstances relating to Deepcut and Catterick barracks, I am one of the campaigners for a judicial review into some of the deaths, if that isn't already obvious.
The facts are that the MoD have established that there are 1.5 times more deaths (rather than suicides) in the Forces (Especially so the Army) than in civilian life.
After yesterdays announcement by Assistant Chief Constable Bob Quick of the Surrey Police the wheels have been put into motion for a Defence Select Committee of MP's to hold yet another Inquiry.
The culture in our days in the Forces are far different to what they are today, we accepted the harsh but fair regime, that was part and parcel of life, I never experienced bullying in any form. Today you only have to see the bullyboys in school, in comparison to days of yore, the road rage, shopping trolley rage, general attitudes to each other and against the law and establishment. The whole scene has changed in life and in my opinion not for the better, today we have the quantity of life where in our day we had the quality of life.
If my son/grandson had joined the Army and then shot himself in the head/chest more than once then I too would be knocking on someones door asking some very pertinent questions like these fathers are doing. No one is suggesting that all 1800 died in this way over 14 years because we know this isn't so but there are some who have died in very mysterious circumstances that cannot be explained and it is for these soldiers that we are fighting for justice and to ensure such tragedies do not come back to haunt some other unfortunate family in the future.
Whilst agreeing that the Deepcut and other deaths need to be investigated properly and transparently I also agree with Tab that the media play the emotive card too much. Yes, these were young trainees, but I joined the Corps at barely 17 years of age and would have been highly insulted to be referred to as a child once I had donned the uniform. I was still not 18 when I got my green lid and within months I and others of my age were in the firing line, and some died. We were not children, we were men, young yes but surely in completing the training we had and doing the job we were doing we were doing an adults job, not a childs?
That said these young soldiers should not be sacrificed in the way that they have been.
Barry
That said these young soldiers should not be sacrificed in the way that they have been.
Barry
BC
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Sticky Blue
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chrisfow
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Joined: 06 Jan 2004
Posts: 5
Location: Kent, England
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 14:51 Post subject: Deepcut Barracks
Thoughts anyone on the old "goings on" at Deepcut? I was navigating for an RLC Corporal 4tonner driver last summer when, looking down on the military survey, realised we were only two ks from Deepcut.
"I had no idea we were so close to Deepcut" said I.
"Yeah, the place where the murders happened" said he, matter of factly.
Read in to that what you will, but surely an RLC NCO based at the place would know at least something about it!
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Staffords all the way
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Spannerman
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Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 619
Location: East Anglia
Posted: 09 Mar 2004 15:24 Post subject:
Rumour has it that the Barracks at Deepcut/Blackdown are being closed down and that the personnel will be deployed to that other stark institution at Catterick where more deaths have been recorded than Deepcut.
Usual Government philosophy, destroy all the evidence!
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Spannerman
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Drums beating, colours flying and bayonets fixed...
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Jan Milligan
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Deepcut
While I agree with what you say Barry, and add when my son wore his uniform he felt he had grown ten feet and was as proud as punch to have followed in his fathers footsteps.
I as his mother, will always remember him as my child, and would have dearly loved for him to have reached the legal age of manhood.
He barely made it, dying in 1992 whilst on duty in Osnabruck, six weeks after leaving Deepcut.
He was shot with one bullet twice, it entered through his cheek exiting at the base of his skull it reentered through his mouth and exited through the top of his head.
Army Verdict Suicide, request for an Inquest, Denied. Request for a copy of the Post Mortem Denied. I eventually managed to get a copy of the PM Via a Prof from Glasgow Uni. and a TA Major to boot.
It states Clearly, there are to entry wounds and two exit, but only one shell casing found
I as his mother, will always remember him as my child, and would have dearly loved for him to have reached the legal age of manhood.
He barely made it, dying in 1992 whilst on duty in Osnabruck, six weeks after leaving Deepcut.
He was shot with one bullet twice, it entered through his cheek exiting at the base of his skull it reentered through his mouth and exited through the top of his head.
Army Verdict Suicide, request for an Inquest, Denied. Request for a copy of the Post Mortem Denied. I eventually managed to get a copy of the PM Via a Prof from Glasgow Uni. and a TA Major to boot.
It states Clearly, there are to entry wounds and two exit, but only one shell casing found
