Hi, guys,
just read todays Telegraph and they did run almost an identical story to the C.B.C. On the face of it, a plausible account, well let`s just have a minute or two to go through it, shall we?
Two fast-movers are cruising through a stated air exclusion zone over a known exercise area, when one "reports to his controller" that he has seen small arms muzzle-flashes from the ground and believes he is under fire. He asks for permission to bomb and permission is refused, but the controller asks for the "target" to be marked,unbelieveably,our hero is asked to go back over the "target" for a second time.
Again, he sees muzzle-flashes and asks for a second time if he can unload over the "target". Controller says negative, unless your life is threatened. At which point Luke Skywalker enables a 250lbs laser guided bomb and presses the tit.
I don`t believe a word of it. In the time this alleged conversation would have taken, an F 16 pilot could have lit up the sky with his afterburner and been at least 50 miles away(any fast-jet jocks put me right) Allso, a pilot would not be given a "go around" for something like this.
Call me old fashioned, but what is that I see on the horizon, could it be a cover-up, no surely not?
Remembering this incident cost the lives of four good men, your views, please.
yours, Aye
Harry
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four five off to afgahnistan
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harry hackedoff
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Last edited by harry hackedoff on Tue 23 Apr, 2002 12:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
I watched....
Whilst on a live fire excercise in Wales with 40. we had 2 x air strikes come in as fire support. RAF came in and we could all stay fairly tactical. Once Elmer J and his boys were on the way in, we had to close up to the vehicles and at the front and rear of our "packet" of vehicles, we had the worlds biggest strobe light display.
I really feel for the guys in 45 out there. Does anybody know what the IA is for coming under friendly fire (god forbid)
I really feel for the guys in 45 out there. Does anybody know what the IA is for coming under friendly fire (god forbid)
It all brings back memories of the two US air guidance guys marking out targets on exercise in the Med for a live fire exercise both got stonned and guided the fire in on a Hotel.
What is it with the yanks shoot first ask later and then whitewash the walls to make the blood look pink.
The sorry fact is they have the equipment and no brains we have the brains and no equipment.
What is it with the yanks shoot first ask later and then whitewash the walls to make the blood look pink.
The sorry fact is they have the equipment and no brains we have the brains and no equipment.
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Yorkie Malone
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I must admit that the biggest fear I would have if I was with Royal in Afganistan is definitly NOT the Taliban, but the trigger happy, I'll see if I can get near and scare them, Sky Jockies.
But why is it with them that when it's "frendly fire" (see jokes as well) they ALWAYS hit but when trying ti hit the target they miss by miles.
It almost makes me wonder if it is part of thier training. You can almost see the instuctor showing them.
This is one of our guys, don't hit him.
This is one of thier guys, hit him.
or is it
This is one of our guys, blow him to hell.
This is one of thier guys .... get the REAL MARINES to get them.
I wonder who writes thier training manual.
Is there anyone from the RAF who is surfing the net and passing by who drives these jet things that can shed some light on the subject
The best advise to all Royals in Afganistan is all jets are dangerous, keep a very sharp eye on them at ALL times
SyY
But why is it with them that when it's "frendly fire" (see jokes as well) they ALWAYS hit but when trying ti hit the target they miss by miles.
It almost makes me wonder if it is part of thier training. You can almost see the instuctor showing them.
This is one of our guys, don't hit him.
This is one of thier guys, hit him.
or is it
This is one of our guys, blow him to hell.
This is one of thier guys .... get the REAL MARINES to get them.
I wonder who writes thier training manual.
Is there anyone from the RAF who is surfing the net and passing by who drives these jet things that can shed some light on the subject
The best advise to all Royals in Afganistan is all jets are dangerous, keep a very sharp eye on them at ALL times
SyY
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harry hackedoff
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Gipper
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Here's a CBC story that mentions the status of the wounded:
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/04/22/soldiers020422
"The injured soldiers who are returning home are:
M./Cpl. Curtis Hollister, 29, of Cupar, Sask.
Cpl. Brian Decaire, 25, of Winnipeg
Cpl. Brett Perry, 26, of Winnipeg
Pte. Norman Link, 24;
Sgt. Lorne Ford, 33, of Brampton, Ont.,
Cpl. Rene Paquette, 33.
One of the men was still in intensive care Monday. The most seriously injured soldier has had surgery to repair a shrapnel wound to his right eye. The man has not been identified. There's a chance he could lose his eye, but doctors in Canada will make the long-term prognosis.
Two other soldiers who were slightly wounded will remain with their unit in Afghanistan.
They are M./Cpl. Stanley Clark, 35, and Cpl. Shane Brennan, 28, of Collingwood, Ont."
Here's an excellent tribute to one of the fallen soldiers that ran in our National Post over the weekend:
http://www.nationalpost.com/search/stor ... rc%20Leger
'King Marco' left his legacy in Bosnia
The Canadian Press
Major Shane Schreiber, who serves in another unit of the Canadian Forces in Kandahar, wrote this tribute the day after Sgt. Marc Leger's death.
- - -
I had the pleasure of having worked with Sgt. Leger for two years when I commanded A Company (Parachute). He was a soldier of rare skill, compassion and intellect.
My most vivid memory of then-Master Cpl. Leger was during our tour in Bosnia in 2000. By that time, most of the international aid agencies had abandoned Bosnia for more exciting missions elsewhere, but the need was greater than ever because of the return of large numbers of displaced persons to their war -- destroyed homes (and lives).
Master Cpl. Leger had been given a particularly difficult area of responsibility in a place called the Livno Valley. Here, Serbs who had been ethnically cleansed by their Croat neighbours were returning to shattered homes. Despite the fact it was beyond our mandate, Master Cpl. Leger felt he had to do something to help these people.
To him, it made no sense that he was enforcing a peace that kept these people living like refugees in their own homes.
He began by doing little things, like constantly harassing his company commander (me) for resources to help these people. He took leftover and thrown away building supplies and distributed these on patrol. He snuck food from the camp I'M A SCAMMER SPAMMER!!!, and spirited off the camp water truck when no one was looking. The more he found to help with, the more he needed, as those villagers he was helping told their friends to return home, that the Canadians would help them. Soon, a shattered village began to rebuild.
The Livno valley became Master Cpl. Leger's adopted home. He lived in the camp with the rest of us, but his heart and mind was always with 'his' people stuck in the bombed-out houses among mine-strewn fields. He could not accept that humanitarian aid agencies had simply left these people to fend for themselves. He began to badger the local UNHCR representative, and any aid agency that drove through the area was stopped by Master Cpl. Leger and given a lecture on the conditions and requirements for assistance.
Finally, I explained to Master Cpl. Leger that to get any resources from UNHCR or any other aid agency, he was going to have to get their attention, and the only way to get their attention was to get the locals to appoint a mayor to plead their case directly. Seizing on the idea, Master Cpl. Leger organized a "town hall" meeting with his people. He explained the realities and the requirements, and explained the need to choose a leader, a spokesperson. Unanimously, they chose him.
Amused, he explained that he could not act as their spokesperson; he was a Canadian soldier -- not a Bosnian politician. He explained the foreign concept of an election, and they all agreed that this was an excellent way to choose a new mayor. Again, Master Cpl. Leger was the unanimous choice.
Less amused and more concerned, Master Cpl. Leger explained in detail that the mayor had to be one of them. Finally, after much good-natured teasing and a quick lesson on the concept of democratic elections theory done through a bemused translator, the locals chose their mayor. But they immediately became a constitutional monarchy when, again by unanimous decision, they named Master Cpl. Leger their king. 'King Marco' was to become Master Cpl. Leger's lasting title, both in the Livno Valley, and within the parachute company.
In his advocacy for the plight of the Livno Valley, King Marco became the irresistible force that eventually wore away the immovable rocks of misunderstanding and apathy. Eventually, he became a spokesperson for returnees throughout the Canadian area of responsibility, and his passion and his commitment made him an eloquent representative.
I used to love to bring VIPs, like our British divisional commander, the American three-star commander of SFOR, or the Canadian ambassador to Radonovici in the Livno Valley for Master Cpl. Leger to brief. His forthright manner and common sense solutions made converts of them all, and I watched with pride as he stickhandled every question until even the most skeptical became his supporters.
Master Cpl. Leger's proudest day of the tour was when the first red tile roof went up in the Livno Valley, reversing a 10-year cycle of destruction and despair. King Marco had brought hope back to the Livno Valley.
I don't know what the Livno Valley looks like today. King Marco's empire may have returned to ruins, although I doubt that, as King Marco was as diligent in his succession as he was in his rule. I do know that for many, his compassion was truly and deeply heroic, and added to his already tall stature as a leader and soldier.
For his work in the Livno Valley, Sgt. Leger was deservedly awarded a Chief of Defence Staff Commendation last year. He didn't think that he had done anything that anyone else wouldn't have done, and that many hadn't already done (but then, heroes seldom do think much of their efforts or achievements).
What I find incredible is that Sgt. Leger was not all that different from every other trooper in my company. What I find even more surprising is how an institution as publicly maligned and neglected as the Canadian army an continue to consistently attract and retain guys like Marc Leger. As historian Jack Granatstein has said of another Canadian army at another time, it is probably a better organization than the people of Canada know or deserve. Marc Leger, and his fellow soldiers are, as the Prime Minister has already said, "the best face of Canada."
He was a goddamned hero, and we should all take our lead from his spirit and his actions.
The King is Dead. Long Live the King.
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/04/22/soldiers020422
"The injured soldiers who are returning home are:
M./Cpl. Curtis Hollister, 29, of Cupar, Sask.
Cpl. Brian Decaire, 25, of Winnipeg
Cpl. Brett Perry, 26, of Winnipeg
Pte. Norman Link, 24;
Sgt. Lorne Ford, 33, of Brampton, Ont.,
Cpl. Rene Paquette, 33.
One of the men was still in intensive care Monday. The most seriously injured soldier has had surgery to repair a shrapnel wound to his right eye. The man has not been identified. There's a chance he could lose his eye, but doctors in Canada will make the long-term prognosis.
Two other soldiers who were slightly wounded will remain with their unit in Afghanistan.
They are M./Cpl. Stanley Clark, 35, and Cpl. Shane Brennan, 28, of Collingwood, Ont."
Here's an excellent tribute to one of the fallen soldiers that ran in our National Post over the weekend:
http://www.nationalpost.com/search/stor ... rc%20Leger
'King Marco' left his legacy in Bosnia
The Canadian Press
Major Shane Schreiber, who serves in another unit of the Canadian Forces in Kandahar, wrote this tribute the day after Sgt. Marc Leger's death.
- - -
I had the pleasure of having worked with Sgt. Leger for two years when I commanded A Company (Parachute). He was a soldier of rare skill, compassion and intellect.
My most vivid memory of then-Master Cpl. Leger was during our tour in Bosnia in 2000. By that time, most of the international aid agencies had abandoned Bosnia for more exciting missions elsewhere, but the need was greater than ever because of the return of large numbers of displaced persons to their war -- destroyed homes (and lives).
Master Cpl. Leger had been given a particularly difficult area of responsibility in a place called the Livno Valley. Here, Serbs who had been ethnically cleansed by their Croat neighbours were returning to shattered homes. Despite the fact it was beyond our mandate, Master Cpl. Leger felt he had to do something to help these people.
To him, it made no sense that he was enforcing a peace that kept these people living like refugees in their own homes.
He began by doing little things, like constantly harassing his company commander (me) for resources to help these people. He took leftover and thrown away building supplies and distributed these on patrol. He snuck food from the camp I'M A SCAMMER SPAMMER!!!, and spirited off the camp water truck when no one was looking. The more he found to help with, the more he needed, as those villagers he was helping told their friends to return home, that the Canadians would help them. Soon, a shattered village began to rebuild.
The Livno valley became Master Cpl. Leger's adopted home. He lived in the camp with the rest of us, but his heart and mind was always with 'his' people stuck in the bombed-out houses among mine-strewn fields. He could not accept that humanitarian aid agencies had simply left these people to fend for themselves. He began to badger the local UNHCR representative, and any aid agency that drove through the area was stopped by Master Cpl. Leger and given a lecture on the conditions and requirements for assistance.
Finally, I explained to Master Cpl. Leger that to get any resources from UNHCR or any other aid agency, he was going to have to get their attention, and the only way to get their attention was to get the locals to appoint a mayor to plead their case directly. Seizing on the idea, Master Cpl. Leger organized a "town hall" meeting with his people. He explained the realities and the requirements, and explained the need to choose a leader, a spokesperson. Unanimously, they chose him.
Amused, he explained that he could not act as their spokesperson; he was a Canadian soldier -- not a Bosnian politician. He explained the foreign concept of an election, and they all agreed that this was an excellent way to choose a new mayor. Again, Master Cpl. Leger was the unanimous choice.
Less amused and more concerned, Master Cpl. Leger explained in detail that the mayor had to be one of them. Finally, after much good-natured teasing and a quick lesson on the concept of democratic elections theory done through a bemused translator, the locals chose their mayor. But they immediately became a constitutional monarchy when, again by unanimous decision, they named Master Cpl. Leger their king. 'King Marco' was to become Master Cpl. Leger's lasting title, both in the Livno Valley, and within the parachute company.
In his advocacy for the plight of the Livno Valley, King Marco became the irresistible force that eventually wore away the immovable rocks of misunderstanding and apathy. Eventually, he became a spokesperson for returnees throughout the Canadian area of responsibility, and his passion and his commitment made him an eloquent representative.
I used to love to bring VIPs, like our British divisional commander, the American three-star commander of SFOR, or the Canadian ambassador to Radonovici in the Livno Valley for Master Cpl. Leger to brief. His forthright manner and common sense solutions made converts of them all, and I watched with pride as he stickhandled every question until even the most skeptical became his supporters.
Master Cpl. Leger's proudest day of the tour was when the first red tile roof went up in the Livno Valley, reversing a 10-year cycle of destruction and despair. King Marco had brought hope back to the Livno Valley.
I don't know what the Livno Valley looks like today. King Marco's empire may have returned to ruins, although I doubt that, as King Marco was as diligent in his succession as he was in his rule. I do know that for many, his compassion was truly and deeply heroic, and added to his already tall stature as a leader and soldier.
For his work in the Livno Valley, Sgt. Leger was deservedly awarded a Chief of Defence Staff Commendation last year. He didn't think that he had done anything that anyone else wouldn't have done, and that many hadn't already done (but then, heroes seldom do think much of their efforts or achievements).
What I find incredible is that Sgt. Leger was not all that different from every other trooper in my company. What I find even more surprising is how an institution as publicly maligned and neglected as the Canadian army an continue to consistently attract and retain guys like Marc Leger. As historian Jack Granatstein has said of another Canadian army at another time, it is probably a better organization than the people of Canada know or deserve. Marc Leger, and his fellow soldiers are, as the Prime Minister has already said, "the best face of Canada."
He was a goddamned hero, and we should all take our lead from his spirit and his actions.
The King is Dead. Long Live the King.
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harry hackedoff
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thanks for the sitrep, Gipper,
a very moving tribute to a good soldier. But Canada has always had good soldiers. We remember Dieppe and Normandy, now we remember Afganistan.Today of all days, we remember.
Heard some twat on the radio refer to this as an unfortunate accident, well that`s bollocks. Criminal negligence is what it was. As I`ve said elsewhere, for every victim.......
Our thoughts are with them,
yours, as ever,
Harry
a very moving tribute to a good soldier. But Canada has always had good soldiers. We remember Dieppe and Normandy, now we remember Afganistan.Today of all days, we remember.
Heard some twat on the radio refer to this as an unfortunate accident, well that`s bollocks. Criminal negligence is what it was. As I`ve said elsewhere, for every victim.......
Our thoughts are with them,
yours, as ever,
Harry
The so called friendly fire casualty,has been a fact of life for Elmo's
allies,certainly since his belated arrival on the world war2 scene,and
probably in the other conflicts prior to that.As someone said in previous
discussion on this point,he has the best equipment in the world,but no
discipline or expertise,which is a great pity.
Yours Owdun
allies,certainly since his belated arrival on the world war2 scene,and
probably in the other conflicts prior to that.As someone said in previous
discussion on this point,he has the best equipment in the world,but no
discipline or expertise,which is a great pity.
Yours Owdun
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USMCGuest
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Good On 'Em...
...And God speed. Just read the latest news on Operation Snipe, sounds like my brother Royals got the plan to get it done. Perhaps they can do what other coalition forces could not - Get Osama!
[b]Semper Fidelis, Ron Rosenthal
Sergeant USMC / 1983 - 1997[/b]
[url]http://www.rsrosenthal.net[/url]
[img]http://home.attbi.com/~rsrosenthal5/SmallRibbons.gif[/img]
[b]Honor, Courage & Commitment[/b]
Sergeant USMC / 1983 - 1997[/b]
[url]http://www.rsrosenthal.net[/url]
[img]http://home.attbi.com/~rsrosenthal5/SmallRibbons.gif[/img]
[b]Honor, Courage & Commitment[/b]
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harry hackedoff
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Devil Dog, welcome to the neighbourhood,
we got a plan from the man who can, his name it is.......Marine
As you can see, Ron, we don`t have a high opinion of your air force.
What do you recall from the Gulf when our guys were taken out by the A10 with a Mav? Allso, what is the public perception of the incident with the Canucks back in the US of A?
As a side issue, what I posted on your site, about Dryforce rescue-ing your Grunts at the Chosin Reservoir. There are probably guys on here who where there and could fill you in more than I,
Owdun, this was your era, any help, mate?
Sempers and Per Mare, Brothers Together
yours, Aye
Harry
we got a plan from the man who can, his name it is.......Marine
As you can see, Ron, we don`t have a high opinion of your air force.
What do you recall from the Gulf when our guys were taken out by the A10 with a Mav? Allso, what is the public perception of the incident with the Canucks back in the US of A?
As a side issue, what I posted on your site, about Dryforce rescue-ing your Grunts at the Chosin Reservoir. There are probably guys on here who where there and could fill you in more than I,
Owdun, this was your era, any help, mate?
Sempers and Per Mare, Brothers Together
yours, Aye
Harry
Last edited by harry hackedoff on Thu 02 May, 2002 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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harry hackedoff
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USMCGuest
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I'll tell you the truth, all of the friendly fire incidents scared the hell out of me while we were in the Gulf. I recall the A10 incident quite vividly. All the knowledge & technology that we had then and that we have now & we can't put ordinance on intended target?As you can see, Ron, we don`t have a high opinion of your air force. What do you recall from the Gulf when our guys were taken out by the A10 with a Mav? Allso, what is the public perception of the incident with the Canucks back in the US of A?
The overall perception here, in regards to all friendly fire incidents, whether the victims be U.S. or her allies, is that it is an unfortunate, albeit preventable occurrance. However, the U.S. media and politicos do a good job of selling it as a small sacrifice for the greater cause.
[b]Semper Fidelis, Ron Rosenthal
Sergeant USMC / 1983 - 1997[/b]
[url]http://www.rsrosenthal.net[/url]
[img]http://home.attbi.com/~rsrosenthal5/SmallRibbons.gif[/img]
[b]Honor, Courage & Commitment[/b]
Sergeant USMC / 1983 - 1997[/b]
[url]http://www.rsrosenthal.net[/url]
[img]http://home.attbi.com/~rsrosenthal5/SmallRibbons.gif[/img]
[b]Honor, Courage & Commitment[/b]
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harry hackedoff
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harry hackedoff
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Teufel et al,
another differance between us, is our attitude to what is safe.My old dad used to say Elmer would make an artillery fuze that worked, then take five years making it safe. We would make an artillery fuze that was safe, then take five years making it work!
Good to have you on board, Ron,
Semper Fidelis,
yours, Aye
Harry
another differance between us, is our attitude to what is safe.My old dad used to say Elmer would make an artillery fuze that worked, then take five years making it safe. We would make an artillery fuze that was safe, then take five years making it work!
Good to have you on board, Ron,
Semper Fidelis,
yours, Aye
Harry
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harry hackedoff
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Guys,
some good coverage on I.T.N. tonight, B.B.C. less so. Correspondants allowed up there tomorrow, so should be interesting. See the guy overcome by oxy starvation, the other day? One minute, you`re O.K., the next you feel like you`re not breathing at all. Most looked very comfortable, tonight.
God Bless and Good Luck to all
Harry
some good coverage on I.T.N. tonight, B.B.C. less so. Correspondants allowed up there tomorrow, so should be interesting. See the guy overcome by oxy starvation, the other day? One minute, you`re O.K., the next you feel like you`re not breathing at all. Most looked very comfortable, tonight.
God Bless and Good Luck to all
Harry
