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Holocaust Denial - Criminal or Human Right?
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harry hackedoff
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Re: Holocaust Denial - Criminal or Human Right?
Ah, yes, let's bring back the Inquisition and burn anyone at the stake who does not agree with what we believe! Let's face it, opinions (David Irving's included) are like assholes......everybody has one.gkayesem wrote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/austria/artic ... 22,00.html
The above story is about David Irving, the holocaust denier who is on trial for the crime of the former.
Obviously, the holocaust did happen, millions were murdered and the Nazis were fully responsible. But some people do not see it that way.
Do you think that it should necessarily be a crime to 'deny' that the holocaust actually happened? Especially, as with Irving, if that person claims to base his or her beliefs on evidence?
Personally I dont believe that it should necessarily be a crime. Its best to bring something like that - and other issues such as racism, discrimination - out into the open and invalidate them with political debate rather than simply criminalising it and hoping it will go away.
Obviously the laws serve a purpose - to prevent neo-nazis from obtaining a public forum. But is not that contributing to the problem? Such people base thier beliefs on what they consider to be genuine evidence and refuse to accept contradictory evidence. Surely the emphasis should be on preventing the spread of such beliefs through open debate, rather than by criminalising such a belief.
Obviously racism is different in that it often preaches inferiority and violence. But are not people entitled to such beliefs as long as they do not incite illegitimate violence?
What do you think?
He should not be tried for not believing in the Holocaust, ones beliefs are not a "Crime" even if they are wrong. What is happening here is a regression to the time that Gallelilo was condemned as a heritic for stating that the earth revolved around the sun.
I have personally visited the Dachau Concentration site (1958) and have a pile of pictures that were taken by the Nazis there. (Stupid sods documented all of their atrocities) and I firmly believe that at least 5 millions were starved, gassed, shot and maltreated to death and sent up the chimneys at the numerous extermination camps that the Germans ran.
But I draw the line at trying to convict a man for his belief no matter how misguided it is.
I think it is worth examining and noting the understanding of "Freedom of Speech" between Americans and Brits.
This gets me in trouble here often. I tend to agree with Col. Murph, but we are Americans and believe freedom of speech means just that. If you called your neighbor in the US a childmolester and he wasn't he probably wouldn't sue you. Libel is hard to prove and persue here. But he might kick your ass.
As far as Irving, I don't think he denied Jews were killed, he just disputes the number which is illegal in Germany. 6 million is the number you have to agree with. If you said 5,999,999 were killed you'd be committing a crime in some countries.
To American's with any sense of American history this seems strange considering it was American policy up until the 1970's to gun down Indians if they resisted Federal will.
Then we dropped Atomic bombs on civilians in Japan when Japan never bombed American civilians on purpose or as policy.
We supported the Soviet Union and Maoist China knowing 145 million were being killed and as Darfur rages on as I write this we do nothing, we actually enable it. For those reasons I think locking up Irving for just running his mouth and doubting round numbers is plain stupid.
Stupid as us trying Sadman with tape recorders playing behind curtians and then handing him over to a lynch mob of his religious rivals citing it was a fair trial and just sentence.
I will agree though, Irving knew better to ask questions in Germany, he'd been warned.
This gets me in trouble here often. I tend to agree with Col. Murph, but we are Americans and believe freedom of speech means just that. If you called your neighbor in the US a childmolester and he wasn't he probably wouldn't sue you. Libel is hard to prove and persue here. But he might kick your ass.
As far as Irving, I don't think he denied Jews were killed, he just disputes the number which is illegal in Germany. 6 million is the number you have to agree with. If you said 5,999,999 were killed you'd be committing a crime in some countries.
To American's with any sense of American history this seems strange considering it was American policy up until the 1970's to gun down Indians if they resisted Federal will.
Then we dropped Atomic bombs on civilians in Japan when Japan never bombed American civilians on purpose or as policy.
We supported the Soviet Union and Maoist China knowing 145 million were being killed and as Darfur rages on as I write this we do nothing, we actually enable it. For those reasons I think locking up Irving for just running his mouth and doubting round numbers is plain stupid.
Stupid as us trying Sadman with tape recorders playing behind curtians and then handing him over to a lynch mob of his religious rivals citing it was a fair trial and just sentence.
I will agree though, Irving knew better to ask questions in Germany, he'd been warned.
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
To add I don't see how this is healthy for Germany to have its nose rubbed in this be it true or untrue. Especially children who should be experiencing positive things in their lives, not atoning for their great grandfathers.
I also do not see the harm in denial, or as I said questioning the numbers, digging up the mass graves for a more accurate graves registration and determination of cause of death. I just don't see the harm. But I do see the harm in singling out Germany historically and constantly humiliating them and reminding them of their wrongs and failures. That method brought us Hitler.
But I think freedom of speech is like this, either you have it, or you don't.
That could be a totally American take on it and is. We have very liberal speech laws here, we virtually do not have any restrictions. Hate speech though pimped as law by special rights groups doesn't really exist. You can hate, incite, do whatever you want in speech here. That is probably why Americans and myself to be exact have a hard time understanding the jailing of a man who has no following really, is not a threat and has physically hurt no one or taken anyones rights away.
The only thing he seems capable of is hurting some peoples feelings and possibly derailing a social agenda.
If my kids were bused to Indian battle grounds and told their ancestors were murderers and to atone I think I'd send the school board to the dentist. Little people today had nothing to do with any war, not even the one in Iraq.
David Irving is neither a hero or a vilian in my book.
I just don't see the point other than the Germans do not have free speech and he was informed of that and spoke freely anyway. He should have seen that one coming.
I also do not see the harm in denial, or as I said questioning the numbers, digging up the mass graves for a more accurate graves registration and determination of cause of death. I just don't see the harm. But I do see the harm in singling out Germany historically and constantly humiliating them and reminding them of their wrongs and failures. That method brought us Hitler.
But I think freedom of speech is like this, either you have it, or you don't.
That could be a totally American take on it and is. We have very liberal speech laws here, we virtually do not have any restrictions. Hate speech though pimped as law by special rights groups doesn't really exist. You can hate, incite, do whatever you want in speech here. That is probably why Americans and myself to be exact have a hard time understanding the jailing of a man who has no following really, is not a threat and has physically hurt no one or taken anyones rights away.
The only thing he seems capable of is hurting some peoples feelings and possibly derailing a social agenda.
If my kids were bused to Indian battle grounds and told their ancestors were murderers and to atone I think I'd send the school board to the dentist. Little people today had nothing to do with any war, not even the one in Iraq.
David Irving is neither a hero or a vilian in my book.
I just don't see the point other than the Germans do not have free speech and he was informed of that and spoke freely anyway. He should have seen that one coming.
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
By taking the German people forcefully to the concentration camps and making them see what was done in their name and making them help clean up the mess brought it home to Germans just how wrong their leaders had been. They now accept what happened was wrong, they are not trying to forget it but make sure it never happens again. The last thing the Germans want is some idiot to come along and deny that this ever happened and that it is all allied propaganda
It is a pity that the same thing did not happen in Japan where they still feel that they were the only ones badly treated and misunderstood and that they did nothing wrong except to try and protect them selfs.
It is a pity that the same thing did not happen in Japan where they still feel that they were the only ones badly treated and misunderstood and that they did nothing wrong except to try and protect them selfs.
I am very aware of the official excuse for traumatising and stigmitising German children to this day goes on about reminding them of their former countries wrongs.
However I fail to be aware of similar programs of forced acknoweldgements of "crimes" by 3rd and 4th Generation children elsewhere in countries that still exist and countries that no longer exist.
No such program exists in the USA over our genocide of the American Indian, yet I have not seen any mass attempt to kill Indians lately.
China was executing students for asking for voting rights in 89 and was still our favored trade nation. Japan executed and decapitated US and British POW's, yet I know of no program like the one in Germany for Japanese children. The Japanese quite possibly killed as many Filipinos for sheer sport and Chinese as well, no national atonement.
And as we speak Darfur rages on and no one, not even Israel and their famed commandos are doing anything to stop it. I saw a youtube video of Darfur refugees being executed in front of UN troops, and the UN did nothing, but document it.
Again, a hit play tape recorder reply will not address these facts. I do not expect anyone to try here either. But 26 million Indians were killed on the Great Plains, if you came to America and denied that, you wouldn't go to jail, you wouldn't even get noticed more than likely because your take on American Indian deaths has no impact on anyone. And even though most Americans have no idea that many were killed or the policies set to murder them even with germ warfare, no one is murdering Indians today.
As far as establishing concentration camps, the Indians were tribal and conveniently established their own camps making it unneccessary for the US government to pin them up to kill them. The Army would simply surround their camps and nfire on them with artillery, then close in and shoot, slash and bayonet their way to the center.
Yet most American Indians youth today have no idea how bad it really was. Again, no one has risen against the tribes in a long while other than the FBI in a shootout up in the Dakotas.
However I fail to be aware of similar programs of forced acknoweldgements of "crimes" by 3rd and 4th Generation children elsewhere in countries that still exist and countries that no longer exist.
No such program exists in the USA over our genocide of the American Indian, yet I have not seen any mass attempt to kill Indians lately.
China was executing students for asking for voting rights in 89 and was still our favored trade nation. Japan executed and decapitated US and British POW's, yet I know of no program like the one in Germany for Japanese children. The Japanese quite possibly killed as many Filipinos for sheer sport and Chinese as well, no national atonement.
And as we speak Darfur rages on and no one, not even Israel and their famed commandos are doing anything to stop it. I saw a youtube video of Darfur refugees being executed in front of UN troops, and the UN did nothing, but document it.
Again, a hit play tape recorder reply will not address these facts. I do not expect anyone to try here either. But 26 million Indians were killed on the Great Plains, if you came to America and denied that, you wouldn't go to jail, you wouldn't even get noticed more than likely because your take on American Indian deaths has no impact on anyone. And even though most Americans have no idea that many were killed or the policies set to murder them even with germ warfare, no one is murdering Indians today.
As far as establishing concentration camps, the Indians were tribal and conveniently established their own camps making it unneccessary for the US government to pin them up to kill them. The Army would simply surround their camps and nfire on them with artillery, then close in and shoot, slash and bayonet their way to the center.
Yet most American Indians youth today have no idea how bad it really was. Again, no one has risen against the tribes in a long while other than the FBI in a shootout up in the Dakotas.
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
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Rogue Chef
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Just a tiny, pernickety point. Yes they did, or at least tried.Japan never bombed American civilians on purpose or as policy.
Fire balloons or balloon bombs hydrogen balloons with a load varying from a 12 kg (26 lb) incendiary to one 15 kg (33 lb) antipersonnel bomb and four 5 kg (11 lb) incendiaries attached. They were launched by Japan during World War II, designed to wreak havoc on Canadian and American cities, forests, and farmlands.
From late 1944 until early 1945, the Japanese launched over 9,000 of these fire balloons, of which 300 were found or observed in the U.S. Some guesswork gives the total number that made the trip at about 1,000. Despite the high hopes of their designers, the balloons were relatively ineffective as weapons, causing only six deaths and a small amount of damage, and they survive in memory mostly as an ingenious and dangerous curiosity.
Yeah a fantasy scheme to bomb the US. We bombed the Japanese mainland shortly after Dec. 7th.
The Japanese never possessed the means to actually take on the US mainland. Just as Hitler never possessed a Navy big enough to be a real threat to the Royal Navy. His fleet was smaller than the Treaty of Versallies allotted. Now his Luftwaffe and V-2's were in full swing, but mostly to influence an election. To get Churchill out, yet that backfired on Hitler.
All this grabbing at shadows is distracting from the theme. Should a man be jailed for his views or speech?
Prostitution in Germany is legal. Questioning, even researching the Holocaust critically is a crime. I saw people in Frankfurt openly buying and shooting drugs, yet Irving is dangerous?
He'll I'd wager alcohol kills more people in Europe than guns in America, but guns are still bad, can't have those. I'm sorry you people are not free. We failed you after WW2, we let the Bolshiveks have you. Sadly you don't even know it. Same with Germany, we let Stalin have half openly and let his socialism infect the other half as we watched.
Freedom of speech is a measure of just how free a country and society is. You and Germany are not free. Getting locked up for denying anything is stupid and is usually attached to agendas. Hell how many get locked up for denying God?
Is the Holocaust more sacred than God? Again this boggles the mind of an American especially replies that he should be locked up for being disrespectful to this or that. I've yet to meet too many people of recent generations who have respect for anything? Shall you lock up the planet?
You and what army?
The Japanese never possessed the means to actually take on the US mainland. Just as Hitler never possessed a Navy big enough to be a real threat to the Royal Navy. His fleet was smaller than the Treaty of Versallies allotted. Now his Luftwaffe and V-2's were in full swing, but mostly to influence an election. To get Churchill out, yet that backfired on Hitler.
All this grabbing at shadows is distracting from the theme. Should a man be jailed for his views or speech?
Prostitution in Germany is legal. Questioning, even researching the Holocaust critically is a crime. I saw people in Frankfurt openly buying and shooting drugs, yet Irving is dangerous?
He'll I'd wager alcohol kills more people in Europe than guns in America, but guns are still bad, can't have those. I'm sorry you people are not free. We failed you after WW2, we let the Bolshiveks have you. Sadly you don't even know it. Same with Germany, we let Stalin have half openly and let his socialism infect the other half as we watched.
Freedom of speech is a measure of just how free a country and society is. You and Germany are not free. Getting locked up for denying anything is stupid and is usually attached to agendas. Hell how many get locked up for denying God?
Is the Holocaust more sacred than God? Again this boggles the mind of an American especially replies that he should be locked up for being disrespectful to this or that. I've yet to meet too many people of recent generations who have respect for anything? Shall you lock up the planet?
You and what army?
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
If Japan had the means of bombing America would they have bombed it, well of course they would. Japan also developed aircraft carrying submarines so that they could get into range of the Panama Canal and destroy the lock gates, still Panama isnt America. It was lucky for the Allies that the Axis forces went for the two engine bomber and the Allies went for the four engine one which gave us the range to hit the them at home and hit them hard.
The man is a grade one coc* but why is it a special case for the Holocaust.
After all the Russians lost 1 000 000 in the camps. Plus 10 700 000 military dead and 11 400 000 civilians. Is it against the law to denial their loss.
Let the man talk crap and dig he's own grave.
After all the Russians lost 1 000 000 in the camps. Plus 10 700 000 military dead and 11 400 000 civilians. Is it against the law to denial their loss.
Let the man talk crap and dig he's own grave.
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"The Regiment has served in every major campaign dating back to 1674."
3 RRF
Anti-Tanks: MILAN
Army Colours for Judo.
"The Regiment has served in every major campaign dating back to 1674."
3 RRF
Anti-Tanks: MILAN
Army Colours for Judo.
If Japan had the means they would have, but they didn't. Their submarine plane launches were pathetic. But it was the US who bombed Japanese civilians first on purpose, not as collateral damage and then went on to nuke them.
Back to the Holocaust, when a government or governments jail people for critiquing or researching or denying an event no matter the horror, then they are coverin g something up or are using an event for an agenda.
Churchill at Yalta gives up Poland to the USSR along with Eastern Europe, the property Britian swore to defend to the last against the Nazis. The land we all went to war over, 6 million Jews were killed in the war under Nazi occupation and supervision. However Churchill and that crippled communist FDR give up 145 million Christians to Stalin at Yalta and history just mumbles this.
Why are the Russian children not made to repent to a sacred religious group oppressed by their leaders? They still have monuments to men in Russia they salute who have more civilian murders under their belt than Hitler, Japan and Ghengis Khan combined.
If someone in Germany denied God existed, denied the USSR killed 100 million Christians or said 8 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust there would be no arrests. But if a German said 5,999,999 Jews were killed and not 6,000,000 then they would have hell to pay.
6 million is a lot of people. Not even the French Army in WW1 lost that many men in the trenches. I'll say that number is so huge I think it would be worth investigating. THe world investigates fly farts afterall.
And I don't think Irving committed a real crime, he was convicted of a political crime and is a political prisoner.
We release Taliban POW's, yet lock up Irving.
I don't think Irving is smarter than myself and that is why his research was poked full of holes.
If I was to seriously have the time and $ I'd come up with the true figures.
What I have found is that by 1939 most of the Jews in Nazi controled lands, 80% had fled. Hitler had made life so miserable for them they packed up. And it was a Jew who assassinated the German foriegn minister at the embassy that sparked Kristallnacht.
Seems the guy who shot the arch duke in WW1 was of the same religion.
But probably purely coincidence. And since freedom of speech is not tolerated here either I'll get me coat.
Back to the Holocaust, when a government or governments jail people for critiquing or researching or denying an event no matter the horror, then they are coverin g something up or are using an event for an agenda.
Churchill at Yalta gives up Poland to the USSR along with Eastern Europe, the property Britian swore to defend to the last against the Nazis. The land we all went to war over, 6 million Jews were killed in the war under Nazi occupation and supervision. However Churchill and that crippled communist FDR give up 145 million Christians to Stalin at Yalta and history just mumbles this.
Why are the Russian children not made to repent to a sacred religious group oppressed by their leaders? They still have monuments to men in Russia they salute who have more civilian murders under their belt than Hitler, Japan and Ghengis Khan combined.
If someone in Germany denied God existed, denied the USSR killed 100 million Christians or said 8 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust there would be no arrests. But if a German said 5,999,999 Jews were killed and not 6,000,000 then they would have hell to pay.
6 million is a lot of people. Not even the French Army in WW1 lost that many men in the trenches. I'll say that number is so huge I think it would be worth investigating. THe world investigates fly farts afterall.
And I don't think Irving committed a real crime, he was convicted of a political crime and is a political prisoner.
We release Taliban POW's, yet lock up Irving.
I don't think Irving is smarter than myself and that is why his research was poked full of holes.
If I was to seriously have the time and $ I'd come up with the true figures.
What I have found is that by 1939 most of the Jews in Nazi controled lands, 80% had fled. Hitler had made life so miserable for them they packed up. And it was a Jew who assassinated the German foriegn minister at the embassy that sparked Kristallnacht.
Seems the guy who shot the arch duke in WW1 was of the same religion.
But probably purely coincidence. And since freedom of speech is not tolerated here either I'll get me coat.
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
