Americans abandoned my men, says 42 Cdo CO

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sat 31 May, 2003 10:53 am

Hello US Army.

With regards to your comment refering to "Operation Market Garden".

Would you care to elaborate?

Rover

US Marine · Post by **US Marine** » Sat 31 May, 2003 11:10 am

I can. what he's refering too is the fact that there was a U.S. group in battle waiting for reinforcments and your gang decided to stop on a bridge and have tea rather than continue to the fight. I'm sure he can give you specifics. I can't recall the bridge unit or battle.

42 · Post by 42 » Sat 31 May, 2003 12:39 pm

the yanks refused to fly because they didnt want to fly at night. FACT. the ls was perfect apart from the reception party waiting for us. the reason we had to fly at that time was to support 40 cdo who were landing further south and without us they would have been left open with no cover but the yanks were quite happy to leave 40 cdo in the lurch. ive never worked with a bigger bunch of tossers. if your wondering where i get my facts from i was there and heard it with my own ears

Sticky Blue · Post by **Sticky Blue** » Sat 31 May, 2003 6:56 pm

42's post seems to have ironed a few things out! Well said that man.
As for Operation Market Garden it seems to have been one cock up after another by all sides and a determined defending force... who was it who stopped for tea? I've seen nothing in all the reports I've read to back that up... Oh it might have been in a film though!!

Rotary Booty · Post by **Rotary Booty** » Sat 31 May, 2003 8:30 pm

During Operation Market Garden a Company of the 82nd Airborne were tasked with crossing a river, in daylight, in canvas boats, to secure a bridge over the last river before Arnhem, which was only 8 miles away. They took 50% casualties, but secured the bridge. The advance units of the Guards Armoured crossed the bridge, and then stopped. The lead tank was commanded by a sergeant, and when asked by the 82nd Airborne Company Commander why he wasn't moving to Arnhem, he stated that there was an anti-tank gun covering his advance. The Americans offered to take out the anti-tank gun, but the sergeant claimed he had no orders to proceed to Arnhem, and brewed tea.

It was portrayed in the film, 'A Bridge Too Far', with Robert Redford as the Company Commander, but it also happened to be true, for once. I saw an interview with the real Company Commander, recorded during a review of the film, which was checking how close the film was to what really happened. Some scenes were way out, but this particular incident was very close to how it really was.
It was all explained later as 'lack of communication'. It turned out there was only that one anti-tank gun between the bridge and Arnhem, when the tanks stopped for a brew.
Such is the effect that one person can have on the outcome of a battle.

In Iraq, a number of 'unfortunate incidents' were put down to a 'lack of communication'. Ouch!

Sticky Blue · Post by **Sticky Blue** » Sat 31 May, 2003 10:07 pm

I think there is quite a difference between:
Stopping for tea
and
Stopping and whilst stopped have tea

US Marine · Post by **US Marine** » Sun 01 Jun, 2003 8:17 am

Sticky,
calm down buddy. I was simply telling you what USARMY was refering too. I NEVER have said anything bad about the british fighting man or spirit. I was told a few posts back that I should relax and learn to take some ribbing from you guys. Well the sword cuts both ways. I didn't mean anything by it. But I was simply replying to the post put up stating that the USAF killed a bunch of Generals.

As far as hearing somthing with your own ears. I was a Marine and I have seen action. Nothing like WW2 or anything, but a bullet going by your head anywhere, at anytime will make you snap too. I have learned a thing a two from combat, and one of them is that every single person involved in an action will have diffrent views of what happened. Simple as that. I'm sure there are men on here who can tell you the same thing, perhaps yourselpf.

As far as us yanks being unprofessional, well like I said every one has an opinion. I'm sure everyone here can think of at least one man in your unit who is an idiot, or was worthless. I happen to think that we have a very professional military. True there are idiots, but thats true everywhere. As far as using air support, why wouldn't we???? Of course we use it. But to say that an American Marine couldn't or wouldn't fight his way out is silly. One example is during the battle of Mogadishu 2 Delta force snipers were awarded the MOH for fast roping down and holding off a nemerically superior force with their sniper rifles and pistols thus saving the life of the pilot. The Rangers also fought their way street to street and house to house. No, I think we can fight. Just as well if not better than most. I have worked with the RM during training in the U.S. and found them likeable, professional, and tough. I had a great time with them and they with us. It's not the uniform that makes the fighting man gents. Its the man in the uniform. In the end I would hope that there would be a mutual respect between men who faught and died together no matter what country of origin. I have recieved private messages as I stated earlier. One in particular from a RM. He said he thought very highly of our Corps, and that there are alot of guys who never served who just regeritate what they hear from others. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here, I have read Andy O'prays views and can respect them. After all when he served with my Marines he apparently had a bad lot to work with. I wasn't there so I cannot refute what he saw or experianced. I can only talk about my own. And I had a great experiance with the RM. I have nothing but respect for any man or woman that serves, and would not slight anyone unless I was there and saw it with my own eyes. I read history, but always try to find people who were there to get the real scoop. Respect, a willingness to carry out your mission with agression and professionalism, and without constantly complaining is the mark of a professional soldier.

US Marine · Post by **US Marine** » Sun 01 Jun, 2003 9:55 am

42 wrote:the yanks refused to fly because they didnt want to fly at night. FACT. the ls was perfect apart from the reception party waiting for us. the reason we had to fly at that time was to support 40 cdo who were landing further south and without us they would have been left open with no cover but the yanks were quite happy to leave 40 cdo in the lurch. ive never worked with a bigger bunch of tossers. if your wondering where i get my facts from i was there and heard it with my own ears

I'm not sure what your talking about sir... Can you clarify? When did this happen? WW2? Gulf war 1, GW2? I know that during WW2 the U.S. bombed during the day and RAF at night. Is that what your talking about? I've already posted my thoughts about the RM I'm actually getting tired of arguing the same points over and over. I'm really a very nice guy. I have tried to be polite and respectful to your service, country, and fighting men and women. I have lamented in EVERY post about how much respect I have for the Rm, and how professional they were/are. A few of you have PM'd me and said the same things about my Marines.I wish some of you would post those comments here. Honestly and I'm going to be frank because everyone seems to be frank with me about their feelings. I've never heard so much bitching and whining and complaining in my life... IF those of you who are doing it all are actually RM's then I will tell you that you are doing your service and the reputation of the RM's a great dis-service. I NEVER heard the RM's I trained with complain. So keep on sniveling and crying like a bunch of women. The Royal Marines I worked with would probably have booted you cry babys in the ass. It's unprofessional as hell and I can't believe that those of you who do it actually were Marines. Its border line disgusting. Christ on a crutch. Suck it up and drive on.

I want everyone here to understand that I am not naming names and say the above statment in general. BUT if the shoe fits wear it. I also would like to say that in no way do I think that the cry babys who complain are indicitive of the RM's in general. I have much respect and admiration for you REAL RM's out there. I think if you bother to read any of my posts you will see what I think about the RM. I just couldn't take anymore bitching.

thanks.

Rotary Booty · Post by **Rotary Booty** » Sun 01 Jun, 2003 11:59 am

Sticky

You are, of course, absolutely correct. However, the important word is 'stopped', for whatever reason. The Paras at Arnhem paid the price, and it became 'A Bridge Too Far' when perhaps it need not have been.

History is frustrating in that it doesn't tell us what happened to the sergeant for what would appear to be a crass decision, how could he not have known that Arnhem was the ultimate destination, that Horrocks had demanded a 'Go, Go, Go' mentality, or why his immediate superior didn't order him to move on, or even his immediate superior.

The fact that this is relatively recent history makes it even more frustrating, but, that said, Gulf War II is already full of the same stuff, with the answers as difficult to obtain.

42 · Post by 42 » Sun 01 Jun, 2003 1:04 pm

usmarine
the refusal to fly at night was in op telic.what the yanks did was unforgiveable, it left 40 cdo on their own and i`m sure if we`re ever unfortunate to work with the usa so closely again things will be very different.also you said the royal marines you worked with would have kicked us cry babies out for bitching.think again, i rarely reply to the posts on the this forum and usually its to give any advice to men hoping to join the royal marines,but it grips my shit to hear you yanks gob off about how great you are when people like myself and many others who have worked alongside you have seen first hand how bad the majority (not minority) of you are at your work.one more thing.if your ever so lucky to be in the company of a royal marine again ask him what he really thinks of you.i`m sure he`d be happy to tell you.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sun 01 Jun, 2003 1:35 pm

Gentlmen.

Being more of an observer rather than a frequent poster I get the feeling that this thread has degenerated into a "bitching and whining" little forum, fueled by 'one liners' and 'chinese whispers' from both sides of the 'pond'.

There does seem to be a 'pissing contest' between various members as to the 'we are better than you' school of thought.

No doubt various members irrespective of country, service or unit have at some time been of the oppinion that the 'others' have not performed as expected?

Well as the saying goes "shit happens" , the professional moves on.

Regarding Operation Market Garden.

On the evening of 20 September after having been previously repulsed with heavy losses, another joint assault by the 82nd Airborne and the Guards Armoured Division captured the road bridge over the River Waal at Nijmegen along with the railway bridge, both captured intact.

The final 11 mile stretch of road to Arnhem was now open and the 10th Panzer Division thrown into disarray.

At this point the leading tanks were ordered to halt while infantry support was brought forward.
When the advance restarted the following morning with the infantry in support and no doubt after a few 'wets' by the tank crews whilst waiting,the bridge at Arnhem had been retaken by the Germans.

Apart from the operation being a 'cock up' from day one the fighting spirit of ALL involved cannot be denied.

As regards the battle in Mogadishu, knowing one who was there, this was another situation that rapidly became 'pear shaped'.
Again one can only admire the fighting spirit of those American troops at very much the sharp end.

Yes we do have our differences regarding our American cousins, we both have our good and bad points and it is rather sad when we have people from both sides of the 'pond' who have nothing better to do than indulge in petty sniping.

Having outdone myself with this rather long post there is only one thing left to do!

I will now retire for a cup of tea, made with fresh water.

Rover

owdun · Post by **owdun** » Sun 01 Jun, 2003 2:48 pm

Well said Rover,this thread has degenerated into a mud-slinging contest, suggest it be closed. What say, Prez.?

Aye Owdun.

El Prez · Post by **El Prez** » Sun 01 Jun, 2003 3:13 pm

I concur with my learned and aged friend. 'He said, she said' is best left in the playground.
As our beloved leader is so fond of saying, "I'd like to move on now."

The JaCkAl · Post by **The JaCkAl** » Sun 01 Jun, 2003 3:27 pm

What is it everyone is trying to prove with these petty arguments? War is a serious business and what is done, is done, for a good thought out reason. Who the f*ck are we to speculate on these professionals actions, in a time when lives are at stake.

hedgie_rm · Post by **hedgie_rm** » Sun 01 Jun, 2003 5:34 pm

i was also on the ls when the helo went down we were told 40 is in contact as we were putting a blocking position north of 40 to stop 51 mechanised brigade reinforcing from the north it could have went very wrong for 40 considering our delay luckily it didnt but i think the yanks did let us down not on the part of the pilots as ours was still keen to fly us in once we explained our sister unit needed us but higher means as usual wouldnt let them remember they lost oppos as well but there flying skills were poor i know because i had a ch53 land on us and we had to run for it these yanks are going to kill someone was uttered never a truer word said ps excuse the lack of grammer it has taken long enough to type this without getting technical

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