Victoria Cross

[BenChug]

This is the official story.

One lies wounded, a second is cornered in a field. The third stands guard on a country road and boldly confronts an approaching tank, its machine guns blazing. Firing his anti-tank weapon, he disables the tank and fends off ten enemy soldiers. Eluding fire from a second tank, the young private scatters another wave of attackers. He helps his fallen comrade to safety and medical attention, then resumes his position. It sounds like a scene from a Hollywood classic, but was actually a day in the wartime experience of Private Smokey Smith of the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada. The Victoria Cross reads "For Valour." For Smokey Smith, a member of the Order of Canada, it was all in a day's work.

What he told me happened is he and his mates had been told the Germans were on the run after being pushed across this bridge and had been under air attack since, one of them had thought it would be a good idea to 'raid' the local restraunts for booze. It was pouring rain and they were appearantly pretty unhappy about it so, they had proceeded to become inebriated until crap hit the fan, he recalled had he not been so intoxicated they all would have probably ran, and had the Germans not attacked he would have been charged for being drunk on duty.

[barryc]

From most accounts the VC, Scots and booze seem to go together. Some of the Aden fellas may remember that we shared the colony with the KOSB during one period of time and amongst their number was Bill Speakman VC. A man mountain of a jock who won his gong repelling the chinese hordes in Korea. When he had expended the ammo he went on throwing beer bottles, stones and any other missile he could get his hands on at the attackers. Never did seem like the actions of someone totally sober and, I seem the recall that the man himself admitted some years later that the drink did have a little to do with it. Still even drink would have you thinking twice about making a few thousand chinese more angry than they already were. I think still a brave man but we all know how sometimes jocks +drink= a desire to take on the world. Bless 'em.

Barry

[barryc]

Cheers Loz, I was, of course, aware that you originated North of the Border and hoped that neither you nor any other of our Scots brethren would be insulted, that was certainly never the intention. I think your description of the warlike ones is generally the case, but there are exceptions.

We had one such signaller from 3 Cdo Bde Sigs Sqn attached to 42 in Sarawak. A nicer guy you could not wish to meet, but once fuelled up on Tiger ! He regularly, and without warning filled-in his best buddy and , on one occasion cocked his loaded Armalite and invited, "All you bl**dy sassenachs", to take him on. I have never seen a Borneo long house empty so quickly, even quicker than a Nee soon bar when the lights went up and you saw the bar girls you had been chatting up.

Barry

[Jason The Argonaut]

Cheers BenChug that was a great story.

[Cronkilla]

From most accounts the VC, Scots and booze seem to go together. Some of the Aden fellas may remember that we shared the colony with the KOSB during one period of time and amongst their number was Bill Speakman VC. A man mountain of a jock who won his gong repelling the chinese hordes in Korea. When he had expended the ammo he went on throwing beer bottles, stones and any other missile he could get his hands on at the attackers. Never did seem like the actions of someone totally sober and, I seem the recall that the man himself admitted some years later that the drink did have a little to do with it. Still even drink would have you thinking twice about making a few thousand chinese more angry than they already were. I think still a brave man but we all know how sometimes jocks +drink= a desire to take on the world. Bless 'em.

Barry

I think that was a story mentioned on the program. Sounds very similar to a scenario covered.

[barryc]

Cronk, Yes Bill Speakman did feature in the Clarkson presentation but it was an experience to meet the guy in Aden, he was a stores staff sergeant or some such by then, had put more weight on his bulk and still like his beer.

Loz, I thought I had known all the guys in the hut at Lundu, but your observation is so accurate, you must have been there. If only we had realised, comforts for the troops!

As for your new profile on another thread... put the mask back on, put the mask back on


Barry

[Chaff]

Jeremy Clarkson can be a bit of a pillock sometimes, but I thought he was spot on in his presentation which was fuelled by pride but never OTT. The last line made it clear why he's quite so fascinated by his subject, and was very moving.

It was interesting to learn that only 11 VCs have awarded since WWII the last two of which were in the Falklands war. Also raised was the chance of many more being awarded in this era of the modern battlefield where engagement is more likely to be via high tech weaponry than up close and personal. I'm sure there will still be opportunities for acts of amazing bravery, although let's hope the need doesn't arise. Do you think the criteria for awarding the VC should be changed to reflect this?

[Aldo]

Do you think the criteria for awarding the VC should be changed to reflect this?

Absolutley not! Sorry had to get it out my system. If it were to happen then it would be a mockery of the the achievments of those who have already gained it, not to mention those who just lost out on getting but would have under a new revised medal. Also I know if I ever won one I wouldn't like to know that I got it for doing anything less than those before me. Even if it's never won again I don't think they should change the criteria.

Has anyone heard the story about the Para in the Falklands who charged an Argie position alone and was found in the morning dead surrounded by dead enemy? Did he get the VC? Because in my opinion he certainly deserves it.

[BenChug]

Aldo but at the same time you may be proud to have won the medal how many people go out there and say "Im gonna do this for a medal." (Besides Hitler in WW1 of course.) I'd personally rather my mate had got out alive than have won the GC just like the lad in Iraq.

[Aldo]

I'm not saying anyone would go to war just to win medals. But if someone says to you you've been incredebly brave but at the same time you know that people have been passed over being recognised for doing more than you did wouldn't you feel pretty bad, I know I would.

[Budgie]

Do you think the criteria for awarding the VC should be changed to reflect this?

Got to agree with Aldo on this. The criteria is just about right. Since it's inception in 1856 there have been numerous amendments made to the original Royal Warrant. At the risk of boring people here are some facts which you may or may not be aware of.

Originally there used to be different coloured ribbons, blue for the navy and crimson for the army. With the formation of the RAF in 1918 the crimson ribbon was adopted for all recipients.

One of the early criteria for recieving the VC was to remain alive until the actual investiture of the medal. There were no posthumous awards.

Until 1920 a winner could have his medal siezed, his pension forfeited and his name erased from the register for being involved in various 'wholly discreditable circumstances'. (Holders below commisioned rank were awarded pensions). This happened 8 times but all names were eventually replaced on the register.

There have been 1354 awards including 3 bars. The American Unknown Soldier is a VC but the British one isn't. He has the Congressional medal of Honour.

The youngest winners were Hospital Apprentice A. Fitzgibbon (Army Medical Establishment) and Drummer T. Flinn (64th Regt later The North Staffordshire regt). Both were aged 15yrs and 3 months.

The oldest was Lieut W. Raynor (Bengal Veteran Establishment) at 61yrs and 10 mths old.

4 Civilians have won the VC (Prior to charter change and the founding of the GC)

4 were awarded in Vietnam (all to Australians)

There is nothing to stop a female winning the VC although to date all the recipients have been male.

There have been 19 instances (38 medals) of family connections (father-son, cousins, brothers, in-laws) winning the VC.

There have been 15 awards to non British and Commonwealth holders including 1 to a Russian.

Most awards in a single engagement was 11. Rorkes Drift 1879

As the criteria has changed and making it more difficult to win a VC it is possible that no more will be awarded and as a recent detailed analysis of VC and GC exploits has put the odds of survival at around 10-1 against, I for one sincerely hope that there will be no more. Or to be more accurate, there will never be the need for more.