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The Middle East... is there any solution?

Interested or active in politics, discuss here.

How do you see the present conflict

Israelis are the agressors
7
29%
Palistinians are the agressors
5
21%
Should the US should stop Bank Rolling the Israelis
10
42%
Should the US should continue as they are
2
8%
 
Total votes: 24

Wholley
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Post by Wholley »

I'm going to disagree with some of the above.
I think the US acts to some extent as a restraint to Israel.
They are the only established Nuclear power in the Mid-East and given rein they would have certainly attacked and probably beat the living shit out of their neighbors.US pressure kept them out of Gulf 1 when Iraq attacked them directly.If Moshe Dayan or Golda Mayar(sp) were still around we would all be in WW111 by now.The Israelis know brinkmanship,I think they are also learning how to get along with neighboring states.Sharon wants peace,as he made obvious when he allowed the terrorist Palestinian Arafat to stay in power.He could have made him go away easily.
There is no easy answer to this prob,but I really think the US is keeping the waring factions away from each others throats while looking after our own interests.
I await the Incoming with baited breath.
Wholley.
:o
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Post by Ex-URNU-Student »

This might be controversial but i think Iran should be allowed to develop nukes. Israels nuclear capability would promptly be nullified and then we'll have "mutual deterrence" between both sides. Once the Israelis realise that they cant win any subsequent war then they'll be forced to sue for peace. I think they know this as well and thats why they're whining against Irans nuclear programme at the moment.
max
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Post by max »

fair enough wholley - its too easy to just balme the US (for everything it seems...). At the very least we should give the US some credit for not just pulling out and washing their hands like the British did after the war. While I'm sure there were many good reasons for this - not least the involvment of the UN - the fact remains that you can't just ignore the problem and hope it will go away...

The US seems to be suffering from a combination of a bad track record and bad press. While its true that they could have certainly handled some things a lot better they are also inheriting problems others have created and in any case continually slating a nation for past 'errors' doesn't really move the situation forward.

While the US have at least some influence on the situation we should support/encourage their efforts for the peace process. Look at Northern Ireland - sure the UK made the mess in the first place but if we'd just pulled out and left it 20 years ago there would have been much more bloodshed by now. Instead, things are moving [slowly] in a more positive direction. We live in the real world and real solutions aren't often easy or quick...
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Post by Wholley »

URNU,
Yep,just what we need,another unstable Mid-East Country with Nuclear capacity.How,in your vast experience can you justify your last statement?
probably should'nt have bitten,but I could'nt resist.
Wholley.
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Post by Ex-URNU-Student »

firstly i dont buy the mullahs-with-nukes-are-a-threat argument, Iran is on the path to reform and a far cry from what the right wingers accuse it of. My theory is that theres too much of a strategic imbalance between Israel and its neighbours and that the more this is narrowed theres a greater chance of peace (since both sides cant prevail militarily).
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Post by Tab »

Well folks I think this has been one of the better threads on this site with a lot of informed and well balance arguments. So there is not a lot left for me to add, but I think we are going to see a lot problems in the coming years over water rights. I was not all that long ago that Israel bombed some damns in Syria that they were being used to irrigate there farm land. The Israelis claimed that they were stealing THEIR water, now if the water is not in their country just how can they be stealing it. So here is a ready made flash point, another point is that the Palestinians started to build a harbour and the Israelis destroyed it, they then built there own international airport, what happened the Israelis went in and dug up the runways. This is to make sure that the Israeli government can control all movements in and out of Palestine and also control the imports and exports.
Marina
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Post by Marina »

Hi there Wholley,

I hope you don’t mind but I do not agree with your viewpoint at all except when the USA restrained Israel during the Gulf War I which is quite a rare thing for the USA to do regarding this part of the Middle East. Frankly speaking, I don’t think USA have made enough effort to actually solve the Palestinan/Israeli disagreement, maybe they were too busy elsewhere in the world and the jewish lobby was being at its most influencial.

With regards to Sharon, I am sorry to say but I put him in the same category as Adi Amin, Milosevic, Pinochet, Saddam Hussain etc. He wants to control the Palestinans with a ball and chain, economically, militarily and geographically. He is also well known for his chief involvement of the massacre of the Palestinian refugees at the Sabra and Shatila camp based in Beirut in 1982. He is also know as the ‘Butcher of Lebanon’ The only credible and honest leader who showed some sincerity in the Middle East peace process was Ehud Barak. The Saudis have said that if Israel returns to the pre-1967 borders, they and the and the rest of the arab nations are willing to establish diplomatic and economic ties with Israel.

I am no fan of President Arafat and the way he has run the PLO and with his leadership. He has made a lot of wrong political manoeuvres even among his arab neighbours but he is still the recognised representative of the Palestinian people. He is no more a terrorist than Menachim Begin or Yitzshak Shamir were in their days when they were committing terrorist acts in the 1940s. As the saying goes ‘one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter’. The Palestinian people have been denied justice over 55 years and they deserve some dignity in this world.

I confess I am limited in my knowledge in political and military history compared to some of the most established members of the Forum but this is my viewpoint as 'The Middle East dilemma' is a very dear and sensitive issue for me.
However, I am trying to be hopeful about 'The Middle East'. When I see the way the British have positively handled 'Northern Ireland' and the way they have shown their integrity and professionalism in Southern Iraq, I feel encouraged that maybe that USA may 'see the light' and will take some notice and follow suit. :-?
Frank S.
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Post by Frank S. »

Israel did show restraint in the first Gulf War, but it also had a price: Germany donated (yes: donated) two submarines to Israel in exchange, with a third being co-financed between Israel and Germany.
At a cost of $230 million apiece, I'd say it was a good deal.
The further purchase of two additional subs was also arranged.

The US president at the time (Bush sr.) having made it clear to Saddam that using WMDs at any point during the conflict would result in the nuking of Baghdad, there was in fact little chance that the Rais would use them even against Israel, and in fact, he did not.

The aforementioned subs, by the way are those reported to be nuclear armed (they have been for over a year now).

I think the current American road map plan aims to establish a viable Palestinian government which thus would give more 'legitimacy' to the Palestinian grievances on the world scene, particularly in the US. But I also think this effort is half hearted.
It also doesn't help that the UN's primary definition of legitimacy hinges upon the principle of sovereignty (which Israel has but Palestine currently lacks), because this effectively paralyzes (again) UN efforts to remedy the situation.
Could the UN reform pushed by Kofi Annan offer hope?

What do you think of Maurice Strong (Senior Advisor to UN Secretary General Kofi Annan; Senior Advisor to World Bank President James Wolfensohn; Chairman of the Earth Council; Chairman of the World Resources Institute; Co-Chairman of the Council of the World Economic Forum; member of Toyota's International Advisory Board. As advisor to Kofi Annan, he is overseeing the new UN reforms)?
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Post by Marina »

Wholley and Whitey,

Just out of curiosity who are you guys supporting in the 'World Series' ?.
My cousin phoned up from the US yesterday and is going mad (with happiness) because the Yankees beat the Marlins 6-0.

P.S
Sorry folks, I went off topic.
Wholley
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Post by Wholley »

Marina.
You make some very good points.
I'm going to wait for the political forum to show up before I overload this Site with too many political Questions.
Errm,How's that going Harry?
Wholley.
:o
Wholley
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Post by Wholley »

Marina,
Have no interest anymore(F*cking Yankees).
Wholley.
:o
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Post by Whitey »

Marina,
I dislike Baseball out of principle. The last Baseball strike turned me off to the game forever. However I hate Yankee's and anything with the word Yankee in it. Yankee means dumbass and people up North think it is a compliment to the point they name their teams after it. Sorry but Baseball really pisses me off, most of the fans were kids and the players who they look up to who make millions a year walked off of the field. What message does that send?

Wholley I was out of town, I haven't forgot you. Got mid-terms this week. Finnished some last week and the rest on thursday. I'll never take 4 sciences together again. Too much work, I'm lazy you know.

So Marina do you like Baseball? I used to, but you know the deal. I like individual sports, the whole team concept is too socialist to me.
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
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Post by Pasha »

Hello Max,

I'm going to take issue with your comment regarding the British involvement in Palestine. Contrary to most Israeli and American assertions the actions of the British security forces in the face of some of the most outrageous terrorist violence, was the very acme of restraint. Among the loudest voices for immediate and unqualified British withdrawal came from the United States, in particular large sections of its press. A fine summary of those events can be found on the website below:
http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/kidnap.htm
Best regards!

Pasha
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Post by Whitey »

Why is it that anyone who supports Israel seems to hold great amounts of power and anyone who opposes them is in squalor.
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
max
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Post by max »

Hi Pasha

Thanks for the link about British involvment in Palastine and your initial history of the region earlier in the thread. Both have been very informative and I will be reading the Britains Small Wars site with interest over the next few weeks.

I have to confess that I don't have the greatest amount of knowledge about the situation and so apologise if my comments are out of turn but... (there's always a but isn't there?!! :wink: )

...while I don't dispute the fact that Britain was under a lot of pressure to leave Palastine and while their conduct was, as you say, the model of restraint in difficult circumstances, I would argue that, for these very reasons, Britain should have remained involved. Britain had the most experience of the region at the time and the most even handed view of the situation and they withdrew knowing that their successors had other, unworkable, agendas for the region.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to point the finger; the situation already was out of control when the British got involved. My point about the British was simply to illustrate something we should be trying to avoid - namely a situation where a nation with experience and a reasonably successful approach to a problem pulls out due to the difficulty of the task and outside criticism.

Would the crisis have been resolved by now if Britain had remained? I don't know for sure but the I do feel that the time taken for the US and UN to realise the nature of the problem allowed the situation to deteriorate in a way that might not have happened under the British. Now we face a similar situation - the US and UN finally understand what they are dealing with and are taking some positive steps (at least in my view) and yet we seem just to be pulling them down.

I would tend to agree with Frank S in that there is an issue as to what the international community classes as legitimacy. I would further add that the notion of legitimacy based upon religious belief seems somewhat shakey to me. After all there are many religions that claim rights over land and claim to be the 'one true way'. This very fact precludes any one of them having a stronger claim to a piece of land than any other. As a result I can't see how the international community can acknowledge religious beliefs as legal grounds for sovereignty over a geographical area. In fact the very idea seems to me remarkably similar to that of Aryan sovereignty over Germany in the 30's and 40's...

Precisely because of the complexity of the situation and the difficulty of reaching a resolution I feel the best approach is one of consistency and continuity from those outside countries involved.

But then thats just my two pence worth...
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