http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... nsas12.xml
This is a link to an article in the telegraph. I saw this article on Sunday. The allegations made against the Amercians didn't suprise me but the fact that a SAS soldier refused to return to the war took me aback.In fact it claims he was the first to do so. I was wondering if anybody else had some comments.
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Ben Griffin
Fair play to him 
As it mentions in the article he's not the first in the overall military. He follows the RAF Doctor.
If you were working with gung ho, trigger happy yanks undermining yr own beliefs of professionalism in yr role and what is acceptable military conduct would you carry on regardless?
As it mentions in the article he's not the first in the overall military. He follows the RAF Doctor.If you were working with gung ho, trigger happy yanks undermining yr own beliefs of professionalism in yr role and what is acceptable military conduct would you carry on regardless?
T.Watkinson
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Artist
- Guest
If you've signed on the dotted line then yes you do as your ordered. Blokes start picking and choosing where and when they fight then Goodbye Discipline.
Saying that I can understand his reluctance to work with certain elements of the USA Armed Forces. They scared the crap out of me on one or two occasions.
Saying that I can understand his reluctance to work with certain elements of the USA Armed Forces. They scared the crap out of me on one or two occasions.
In all Joint ops since the big one(ww11) our amrican allies have killed more brits than the supposed enemy, friendly fire theres no such thing.....Artist wrote:If you've signed on the dotted line then yes you do as your ordered. Blokes start picking and choosing where and when they fight then Goodbye Discipline.
Saying that I can understand his reluctance to work with certain elements of the USA Armed Forces. They scared the crap out of me on one or two occasions.
Have you seen the news today US MARINESversus unarmed civillians..
The Brecon Becons still stand Pen-y Fan is still a pain it makes no differance jnr, snr, selection, it stays with you ............
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Artist
- Guest
Good Owd Uncle Sams Misguided Children!
Most are pretty good at their jobs but they do tend to get a tad carried away when the Shit hits the fan.
I was attached to the 37 MAU (Marine Amphipious Unit) onboard USS Austin an LPD for an excercise once. All these USMC Grunts swaggering around with more ammo slung over their shoulders than 3 CDOBDERM could use in a year! Come the beach assault.................................. GUNG HO! SEMPER FI! GUNG HO! they all screamed as we hit the beach. Talk about embarassed!!
The only thing I could think of saying was For Farks sake! Beam me up Scotty!
All the younger ones talked about was how much they wanted to kill some enemy of the good Ole US of A! Thankfully the older ones were more to my liking. Quite a few of them had served in Vietnam and to a man were bloody good soldiers with their heads firmly fixed to their shoulders.
Most are pretty good at their jobs but they do tend to get a tad carried away when the Shit hits the fan.
I was attached to the 37 MAU (Marine Amphipious Unit) onboard USS Austin an LPD for an excercise once. All these USMC Grunts swaggering around with more ammo slung over their shoulders than 3 CDOBDERM could use in a year! Come the beach assault.................................. GUNG HO! SEMPER FI! GUNG HO! they all screamed as we hit the beach. Talk about embarassed!!
The only thing I could think of saying was For Farks sake! Beam me up Scotty!All the younger ones talked about was how much they wanted to kill some enemy of the good Ole US of A! Thankfully the older ones were more to my liking. Quite a few of them had served in Vietnam and to a man were bloody good soldiers with their heads firmly fixed to their shoulders.
Last edited by Artist on Thu 23 Mar, 2006 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ben Griffin was on newsnight last night, he seemed like a switched on guy who was genuinely concerned at the state of play in iraq, and if what he says is true then its no wonder the americans are facing such uprisings, especially with the recent story about the marines killing a whole family.
I think the most damning thing he said was that at everystage of the war and insurgency the americans ignored our advice which kinda undermines the point of us being allies.
I think the most damning thing he said was that at everystage of the war and insurgency the americans ignored our advice which kinda undermines the point of us being allies.
Applied: 11th November 05
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Written test: Passed
Interview: Passed
Medical: Passed
PJFT: Passed 9.47
PRMC: october
The British Army spent thirtysome years learning how to deal with this sort of situation,the yanks spent that time funding it they did not listen then what makes you think they will now.
Artist has a point the older more experineced are pretty switched on but that is the case in most organisations.
The best place to be when a young excited person has a leathal weapon in their hands is behid them...A LONG WAY...behind ,but if they have got thier hands on a multy million dollar aircraft you could still be in the sticky stuff .... incoming dig in and hope.
Artist has a point the older more experineced are pretty switched on but that is the case in most organisations.
The best place to be when a young excited person has a leathal weapon in their hands is behid them...A LONG WAY...behind ,but if they have got thier hands on a multy million dollar aircraft you could still be in the sticky stuff .... incoming dig in and hope.
The Brecon Becons still stand Pen-y Fan is still a pain it makes no differance jnr, snr, selection, it stays with you ............
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sneaky beaky
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I think I have said this somewhere before.
I spent two years with the Seal Team. Good guys generally and I really like them but the general personality of the US Forces leaves you wondering where they are coming from.
I remember talking to a fairly high ranking officer in the US Navy, i.e. Seal Team and I asked him about "hearts and minds", his answer was
"Son, if you have got them by the balls, then the hearts and minds will follow."
That was back in the 80's. Nothing seems to have changed. For instance in Iraq, there doesn't seem to be any plan for the "end game". I don't see how we can get out without looking like plonkers.
Ben Griffin only spoke what was true.
I'm very glad to see that his CO stood by him and let him resign AND gave him a very good reccomendation as well. Well done the SAS. He could very well have been court martialled like the RAF officer.
It would seem that the Yanks have to be in charge and no-one is going to tell them how to do it. They have a history of not listening to Allies who have previous experience.
They just don't want to listen to anybody. After all they are so superior to everyone else.
It pains me to write this because I really like the Americans but it is their way of doing things, especially in the military that grates. As far as they are concerned - Might is Right. Nothing else comes into the equation.
Sneaky
I spent two years with the Seal Team. Good guys generally and I really like them but the general personality of the US Forces leaves you wondering where they are coming from.
I remember talking to a fairly high ranking officer in the US Navy, i.e. Seal Team and I asked him about "hearts and minds", his answer was
"Son, if you have got them by the balls, then the hearts and minds will follow."
That was back in the 80's. Nothing seems to have changed. For instance in Iraq, there doesn't seem to be any plan for the "end game". I don't see how we can get out without looking like plonkers.
Ben Griffin only spoke what was true.
I'm very glad to see that his CO stood by him and let him resign AND gave him a very good reccomendation as well. Well done the SAS. He could very well have been court martialled like the RAF officer.
It would seem that the Yanks have to be in charge and no-one is going to tell them how to do it. They have a history of not listening to Allies who have previous experience.
They just don't want to listen to anybody. After all they are so superior to everyone else.
It pains me to write this because I really like the Americans but it is their way of doing things, especially in the military that grates. As far as they are concerned - Might is Right. Nothing else comes into the equation.
Sneaky
Former RM of 23 years.
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anglo-saxon
- Guest
During the mid-80's, we did an exchange with the 82nd AB and also a NATO ptls ex in Germany in which the USMC was involved.
The 82nd lost us the first time they fed us. Breakfast was "Shyte on a shingle": Ground beef mixed with porridge on toast. It was grey due to the aluminium oxide from the vats they cooked it in (might explain a few things). Goppin', it was! Then their MRE packs (Meals Rejected from Ethiopia!)...again, goppin'. No wonder every pack comes with its own wee bottle of Tobasco. It took that and a handfull of the usual curry powder to take the shyte taste away.
But apart from that, we found that the 82nd were just all round crap. They lacked fitness, were just way too gung-ho for words (to the point where we were just shaking our heads in disbelief at their lack of professionalism) - apparently, they had never heard of aimed shots, proper fire positions, frag orders, or decent fire and movement. They were good at very high-level decision-making and bombing the crap out of a grid square; they had lots of great-looking kit, and they went "hooah" A LOT! But none of that made up for the fundamental lack of decent soldier skills at the idiv level, or the weak leadership at company and below. Sure, there was the odd good egg, but they were the exception. All round, their false bravado was just that...false. When it came to putting up some real deal agression, they weer shyte. They were shyte when our little lot come though their razor wire and farked 'em up from within their own lines at zero-dark-30 , and they were shyte when they got dropped in the bars after end-ex for gobbing off.
On the ptls ex in Germany, several USMC ptls came back the way they had gone out, after becoming "geographically challenged". Yes, it was a long way and yes it was bloody awful weather, but they just returned to the ech', slumped down on their kit, and sat there in the pi$$ing rain. The Brits all under their bashas, meanwhile, all had a brew on, were busy cleaning wpns, or getting dry kit on and having a crack. The odd shout of, "Oi, dickhead! Yer gonna die of bleedin hypothermia!", fell on deaf ears. Then a bunch of US trucks showed up and the hotdogs and cokes came out, only then did the yanks perk up a bit. We'd have nothing to do with 'em.
I've heard since that they have all improved in the last 20 years. I chatted to a couple of gunnys and an attached RM S/Sgt from the USMC mountainwarfare school in Calgary a couple of years ago. On the side I quietly inquired of the RM what he thought of the USMC these days, he was very diplomatic, but you could tell there was some reserve in his tone.
It was little surprise then, that our subsequent visit to an inf unit in Washington (to remain nameles at this stage) revealed itself as absolute dross!
A mate of mine was working a contract in Iraq, doing close protection. Back then they only had level four armour on their vehicles (level six now). The middle vehicle - a 7-series BMW was hit in the arse end by a burst of AP from an RPK. One lad was hit in the arse and the driver had the wind knocked out of him as the AP penetrator broke a rib even having passed through the car and hit his ballistic vest. Another round severed the fuel line and the car was toast. As the bad guys had scarpered, the CPs called it in (to US QRF as the contract was for the state depatment) and established all round defense. After a fashion, up bimbles this gaggle of yanks in Hummers with .50 cals. I guess they were MPs. Just as they ground to a halt at the incident scene, the wide-eyed female gunner in the lead vehicle let off a burst of .50 cal, bursts into tears and slumps down in her copolla and disappears. One of the rounds passed through the front of the BMW engine compartment and almost severed the foot of the guy who was hit in the arse. He was only saved by a tourniquet, QuickClot, and rapid casevac.
On the other side of the coin: As I mentioned in another thread, one of our WO's just returned from an int stint. There's an outfit here somewhat like the Brit 14 and 29 int. He was playing with them in A'stan for a few months (his second time out). He did say that there were some cowboys among the yanks, but he also said that they have their shyte together much more these days, too. Like: Being able to get an op on the go in decent time, whereas with the Canadians it took a 30-page briefing and 72 hours of battle prep for a single ptl. I suppose it all boils down to the Yanks being in post-Vietnam syndrome in the mid-80's, with very little corporate knowledge of how things were in the real world. After Desert Storm, they started getting their feet wet again. Same with the Canadians, although it's the higher ups who are risking the troops lives by being so damned niain=ve about it all.
There's another bloody soap box worn to tatters. I'll have to stock up!
The 82nd lost us the first time they fed us. Breakfast was "Shyte on a shingle": Ground beef mixed with porridge on toast. It was grey due to the aluminium oxide from the vats they cooked it in (might explain a few things). Goppin', it was! Then their MRE packs (Meals Rejected from Ethiopia!)...again, goppin'. No wonder every pack comes with its own wee bottle of Tobasco. It took that and a handfull of the usual curry powder to take the shyte taste away.
But apart from that, we found that the 82nd were just all round crap. They lacked fitness, were just way too gung-ho for words (to the point where we were just shaking our heads in disbelief at their lack of professionalism) - apparently, they had never heard of aimed shots, proper fire positions, frag orders, or decent fire and movement. They were good at very high-level decision-making and bombing the crap out of a grid square; they had lots of great-looking kit, and they went "hooah" A LOT! But none of that made up for the fundamental lack of decent soldier skills at the idiv level, or the weak leadership at company and below. Sure, there was the odd good egg, but they were the exception. All round, their false bravado was just that...false. When it came to putting up some real deal agression, they weer shyte. They were shyte when our little lot come though their razor wire and farked 'em up from within their own lines at zero-dark-30 , and they were shyte when they got dropped in the bars after end-ex for gobbing off.
On the ptls ex in Germany, several USMC ptls came back the way they had gone out, after becoming "geographically challenged". Yes, it was a long way and yes it was bloody awful weather, but they just returned to the ech', slumped down on their kit, and sat there in the pi$$ing rain. The Brits all under their bashas, meanwhile, all had a brew on, were busy cleaning wpns, or getting dry kit on and having a crack. The odd shout of, "Oi, dickhead! Yer gonna die of bleedin hypothermia!", fell on deaf ears. Then a bunch of US trucks showed up and the hotdogs and cokes came out, only then did the yanks perk up a bit. We'd have nothing to do with 'em.
I've heard since that they have all improved in the last 20 years. I chatted to a couple of gunnys and an attached RM S/Sgt from the USMC mountainwarfare school in Calgary a couple of years ago. On the side I quietly inquired of the RM what he thought of the USMC these days, he was very diplomatic, but you could tell there was some reserve in his tone.
It was little surprise then, that our subsequent visit to an inf unit in Washington (to remain nameles at this stage) revealed itself as absolute dross!
A mate of mine was working a contract in Iraq, doing close protection. Back then they only had level four armour on their vehicles (level six now). The middle vehicle - a 7-series BMW was hit in the arse end by a burst of AP from an RPK. One lad was hit in the arse and the driver had the wind knocked out of him as the AP penetrator broke a rib even having passed through the car and hit his ballistic vest. Another round severed the fuel line and the car was toast. As the bad guys had scarpered, the CPs called it in (to US QRF as the contract was for the state depatment) and established all round defense. After a fashion, up bimbles this gaggle of yanks in Hummers with .50 cals. I guess they were MPs. Just as they ground to a halt at the incident scene, the wide-eyed female gunner in the lead vehicle let off a burst of .50 cal, bursts into tears and slumps down in her copolla and disappears. One of the rounds passed through the front of the BMW engine compartment and almost severed the foot of the guy who was hit in the arse. He was only saved by a tourniquet, QuickClot, and rapid casevac.
On the other side of the coin: As I mentioned in another thread, one of our WO's just returned from an int stint. There's an outfit here somewhat like the Brit 14 and 29 int. He was playing with them in A'stan for a few months (his second time out). He did say that there were some cowboys among the yanks, but he also said that they have their shyte together much more these days, too. Like: Being able to get an op on the go in decent time, whereas with the Canadians it took a 30-page briefing and 72 hours of battle prep for a single ptl. I suppose it all boils down to the Yanks being in post-Vietnam syndrome in the mid-80's, with very little corporate knowledge of how things were in the real world. After Desert Storm, they started getting their feet wet again. Same with the Canadians, although it's the higher ups who are risking the troops lives by being so damned niain=ve about it all.
There's another bloody soap box worn to tatters. I'll have to stock up!
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Artist
- Guest
Once worked with the Italian SAN MARCO (Their Marines) out in Sardinia. Rather flash uniforms (I felt rather sorry for any Black Feathered Italian Cockerels) but I was pleasantly surprised at their attitude. As in they were willing to take advise when it was given and to be fair to them also gave some good advise in return.
Another mob I was attached to were these Turkish Wallers. If you think disipline is harsh in the British Armed Forces then you would last about one minute with the Turks. A mate of mine called Steve P*** was on an Old LST and some Turkish bloke had answered back his CO. I kid you not he had his frigging head removed! Steve even took pictures of the event. At first we thought he was kidding but once he had the photos developed we soon changed our minds.
Instead of getting a bollocking the average poor bloody Turkish Private would nine times out of ten get a bloody good beating from his NCO! This was in the Seventies and I dare say that it's a lot better now but by heck we behaved ourselves once we sussed out what they were like!!
Another mob I was attached to were these Turkish Wallers. If you think disipline is harsh in the British Armed Forces then you would last about one minute with the Turks. A mate of mine called Steve P*** was on an Old LST and some Turkish bloke had answered back his CO. I kid you not he had his frigging head removed! Steve even took pictures of the event. At first we thought he was kidding but once he had the photos developed we soon changed our minds.
Instead of getting a bollocking the average poor bloody Turkish Private would nine times out of ten get a bloody good beating from his NCO! This was in the Seventies and I dare say that it's a lot better now but by heck we behaved ourselves once we sussed out what they were like!!
mmm Saw much the same in 70s Big NATO ex in Italy 3 Para were with the Alpine regt white flower in headdress Eideleiss i think, one of the Turkish contingent fell asleep on stag an unforgivable act to us , THE LAST ONE HE EVER MADE, and that was his oc,s decision bit harsh I thought but no one else nodded off on stag. 
The Brecon Becons still stand Pen-y Fan is still a pain it makes no differance jnr, snr, selection, it stays with you ............
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anglo-saxon
- Guest
On the UN line in Cyprus in the early 80's, OP 22 BRAVO looked dierctly down into the village of Avlona. Every morning the Turk platoon was inspected by an immaculate officer. Why he bothered, I don't now. All the troops looked like shyte, with tatty Adidas track suits under their uniforms to keep them warm. Every morning, one of them would get pistol-whipped by this officer. His voice would suddenly get louder and louder and then he'd just lay into one of them, apparently at random. The troop would haul him off afterwards and someone else would get it the next day.
While I was there, there was a couple of suspected shootings of Turkish troops by their officers. On one daylight OP (06:00 to 18:00) I watched two vehicles show up at a turk OP about 1.5 Km away (using the "mega-binos") and out got the officer and his side-kick. By the time the vehicles usually showed up at the OPs, the one or two troops inside were almost always outside with ther weapons at the present. NOt this time. The officer goes inside, a few seconds later you hear a "pop" and he comes out and drives away. If he capped the soldier inside, they haued the body away after dark, because there was another on duty there the next day (I bet he'd never been so alert!).
I personally liked the Turks, they were easy to suss. Eithe out-and-out criminals, or pretty good all-round eggs. Nothing in between. The Greeks on the other hand were a bunch of lazy, slimey, good-for-nothing liers. A couple of times, we went drinking in Nicosia with some of the lads from the the conscript SF camp (the lads with the Blue berets - as far as I could tell, "SF" to them meant the soldier could read AND write). They weren't up to much kit- or training-wise, but thay were fit as fark and hard as nails. In March '85, it was snowing, and I watched as some of these turkish lads stripped to the waist and jumped inside a water tower to shovel out the silt. They were in there for hours. Afterwards, they insisted on sharing their lunch with us (Bread, a little goat cheese, and a bottle of wine between the three of them. They would take any of ours in return.
Apart from catching them shagging each other in the buffer zone on a regular basis, they all seemed pretty decent.
While I was there, there was a couple of suspected shootings of Turkish troops by their officers. On one daylight OP (06:00 to 18:00) I watched two vehicles show up at a turk OP about 1.5 Km away (using the "mega-binos") and out got the officer and his side-kick. By the time the vehicles usually showed up at the OPs, the one or two troops inside were almost always outside with ther weapons at the present. NOt this time. The officer goes inside, a few seconds later you hear a "pop" and he comes out and drives away. If he capped the soldier inside, they haued the body away after dark, because there was another on duty there the next day (I bet he'd never been so alert!).
I personally liked the Turks, they were easy to suss. Eithe out-and-out criminals, or pretty good all-round eggs. Nothing in between. The Greeks on the other hand were a bunch of lazy, slimey, good-for-nothing liers. A couple of times, we went drinking in Nicosia with some of the lads from the the conscript SF camp (the lads with the Blue berets - as far as I could tell, "SF" to them meant the soldier could read AND write). They weren't up to much kit- or training-wise, but thay were fit as fark and hard as nails. In March '85, it was snowing, and I watched as some of these turkish lads stripped to the waist and jumped inside a water tower to shovel out the silt. They were in there for hours. Afterwards, they insisted on sharing their lunch with us (Bread, a little goat cheese, and a bottle of wine between the three of them. They would take any of ours in return.
Apart from catching them shagging each other in the buffer zone on a regular basis, they all seemed pretty decent.
