Woman wins Green Beret

[David Hughes]

:o ...The lady in question did the "all arms course" three times...she did the wall on her second try of her third pass out week. We all have the option of a "re-sit" in pass-out week, but three goes at the full course ? Mmmmmm!

[John/Sandy Ruane]

As an ex C/Wren RS who spent 3 years with the corps, & married to it I feel quite incensed at certain comments re this woman (she is not a totty) on these pages.
Firstly, I understand she took all the tests within the standard and time frames, so she took 3 attempts at the All Arms Course, I personally know several guys who have also taken 3 attempts, didn't stop them from becoming some of the most professional SNCO's. Whats the problem, then ?Well the problem is that a woman has beaten you at your own game, & the more insecure of you are at a loss.
All things change, they have to in order to survive. Nothing ever stays the same. If you don't change and adapt - you die and like the dinosaurs you will cease to exist.
As for the "front line", well where is this very illusive and hazy line to be drawn then ? Is a woman at sea who faces an incoming missile targetted at the ship from several miles away any less on the "front line" than a woman in a trench who faces a round from a few metres away ? I think not.
Maybe its a generation thing,hopefully the youngsters still in can show a little more acceptance of change.
This woman has shown guts, determination, and integrity and is a credit to her profession - qualities that I would have thought would have been very useful in support of Commando Forces, where ever she serves.
To Pip I say well done, fantastic job, don't think that all Royals are as daft as this lot - go for it girl !!

[El Prez]

Well that's two of us with a broader perspective than some. Girls are on board ships, serve with the 22nd Hereford Gun Club, they patrol in Kosovo and many dirty parts of this world. They are hard working, interesting, fun and keen. How many lads from your last troop could be described thus? Pip Tattersall will make an excellent addition to Brigade HQ, give her a chance, then make up your mind.
Oh Christ, more incoming

[ratso]

I can understand some of the views on here with reference to how well she did how good it is for womens rights, but is it good for what the Commando course is all about?
The question is what good will it do the armed forces as a whole, the answer is that it now opens up what was the hardest course second only to the RM Commando course in the UK's and western worlds armed forces to what will be a small number of women who will want to undertake the challenge.
We will have all the changes to undertake within CTC to accomodate females on courses only to see the dismal pass out rate we have seen from the first few who undertook the course.
POLITICAL yes definatly no other way to describe this, I doubt any on here would not say well done to her, if we can ever believe that it was done with no easing of the rules.
I for one doubt many females could undertake the Stanley yomp with bergens and kit of 100lbs and that is what this is all about.
Front line troops are different to ship in the fact that when we raise it on here we are reffering to those who yomp 30 miles and engage the enemy at close quaters.
The Navy as with all the services have had problems and theirs have been larger than most neccessitating the move to females on board. This has taken almost ten years to adapt to and not without costs, Fearless cost over 10 million to convert for female crew and the problems with morale and other one on one issues have seen many problems.
The big issue is what good is it to train someone if that training will never ever be used or needed. I ask you do Wrens need to do the course to serve at CTC...NO... would they want to do the course...NO... many did come out for fun with us though asked would never even consider it.
It all boils back to simple areas, Yes well done! WHY though?? Shes off back to her old job! likly never to serve with the Brigade!
I would agree to the course for females if anyone could prove there was a distinct advantage to the use of women, or if you could prove that her taking up a vital place on the AAC was to be put to use, the fact is that unlike females onboard who work at their job and do it very well, this lady will never use much of what she was taught other than to progress her civvie street career.
Adapt or die Royal has had that one hung over him many times before but sorry this one does not come close to ever being an issue that will see serving females within the Corps, after all this was just the AAC for attatched ranks.
I am not being sexist I have every respect for all women most work much harder than any man, but I do not know many or have not known many who would want to do the job of a Royal Marine.....!!!

[Rogue Chef]

Ahoy there!
Well said Ratso! For the majority of my last ten years in the Corps, and now in my job in civvie street, I have worked in an almost exclusively operational environment. During that time, there were, and are, females working alongside the men, and some remain good friends. Same course, same job, same pay. Unfortunately, rarely the same standard of professionalism, dedication, committment and plain old fashioned roll your sleeves up and get stuck in attitude. Given the choice of range training or shopping, unarmed combat or a trip to the hairdressers; guess which options the ladies plumped for unless ordered differently. And dare anyone suggest working a weekend when they had 'plans'. Then stand by 'Royal' for a mammoth drip session! Without wishing to engage in any kind of slanging match, these are the plain facts. Not bad people, just different attitudes.
I have no wish to enter into the argument of "did she do it all by herself" etc. So good effort Capt Tattersal, well done for achieving the coveted green and demonstrating that girls can do anything boys can do. But to what end? I suspect that there were greater forces at work behind this; politically motivated people who don't have, and will never have, any idea about what it is like to fight with the Royal Marines in a war. There is, as has already been pointed out, more to being a Commando than just doing the course. To be fit enough to pass the tests is a remarkable achievement, especially for the RM recruits who have to stay medically fit for six months, but it is what is expected of you afterwards that really counts. If anyone can convince me that the people of this country want women to yomp for days in appalling weather conditions, then in the final stages approach the enemy in the dark, in the face of withering small arms and artillery fire, before engaging him at close range, assaulting his positions and closing with him to finish him off in hand to hand combat, then I will walk naked, except for my Green beret, down the Falls Road singing God Save The Queen. Nothing I have seen on this website or in the media has contributed towards me having a 'broader perspective' with regards to this subject. Of course women can do extraordinary things; some are very fit, some are very clever some are exceptional pilots, but until the politicians prove that there is a will to train and deploy large numbers of women in an infantry role, this was a waste of time, money and resources for the sake of a social experiment!
Yours aye
Steve

[El Prez]

True enough Steve, I agree with you. I couldn't contemplate sharing the environs of a slit trench with a female, especially after three or four days of compo exhausting the elasticity of my digestive tract. I wouldn't want to fight alongside a girl, I wouldn't be happy full stop. There is no doubt that the vast majority of girls in the military are not physically cut out to yomp, dig or fight in the way the Corps expects; a rare few can, and will attempt to use their skills in other arenas.
My hackles were raised by the disparaging remarks made about the lady and comments that she somehow cheated. I think we should be ascertaining who made the decision to put her forward for the course, and was this purely a logisitical decision ie she can fill a post in brigade effectively or was she put forward by some prat at MOD trying to prove a point in a politically correct/gender correct move? Anyone serving at Lympstone know the answer to that?
S'all gone quiet, ........... inkummmmmin........
Aye, Rob Parry

[ratso]

The fact is Rob that this young lady and all the others who were put forward last year have never and likly will never serve with Brigade.
So I have to ask POLITICAL???
We all need to be shown the way but this is not the way it just undermined everything the Corps has worked so hard for. As the PARAS are saying they still do not have women on their course other than jump school.
As for the fact was she helped well we won't know for 30 years now OSA yet again.......
The one thing I object to is her being called a Royal Marine by the Press....!!

[harry hackedoff]

I object to them calling her attractive
There are two threads about this and the arguments for/ against are slightly differant on both. I am not against women wearing the Beret, the LCpl last year came close. She ,or someone like her will eventually pass and go on to serve with the battery, or 29 or Logs.
We are all surprised to hear that A.A.C.C. candidates get three goes, so that sounded like "keep turning up till you pass"
We all know head -workers who have passed, or else have suspicions of Training Teams playing the "Numbers Game" where unsuitable recruits have been allowed to "pass". This still looks like a put up job to me.

Aye,

Harry

Dipstick, here, just noticed there ain`t two threads, just me reading the same thread at two differant time and in two differant places. Confused? You will be

[John/Sandy Ruane]

Oh heck, into the lions den once more.....
Funnily enough some of the later comments I agree with.The thing that upset me was the implication that this young woman had to sleep or cheat her way to the green lid.
A political decision ? Very likely - aren't most of them ? ie Afghanistan, if thats not political what is ? I guess he who pulls the purse strings ( the Treasury)calls the shots.
According to local telly, she will indeed be returning to take up a post with Brigade. I certainly don't think she is a waste of tax payers money.
I can understand fully the comments re the Stanley Yomp. What I don't understand is the suggestion that women automatically lower the standards. I know this is not the same but - the Wrens I worked with for nearly 20 years, in some of the busiest operational commcens like Faslane, simply knocked the spots off the men - ok, compared to Jack maybe thats not too difficult (oh God I have lived with Royal too long)!!Again I know its not the same but - I listened for years about how women can't, won't & will never go to sea. Here we are 13 years down the line & they have simply got on and done the job and done it well. To leave 30% of your workforce shoreside simply because they were women never did make any sense to me. That was a waste of tax payers money.
Even if this woman in her career never serves on the "front line" as you know it, surely the more people attached to Brigade who are the best trained and most motivated ie green lidded, are going to be a greater asset in some areas, than those of us who were not.
As for the Paras, well they have nothing to crow about, it will be their turn next!
Surely in the 21st century the most unacceptable concept is that there has to be any front line at all, and that young men and women still have to fight.
love Sandy

[ratso]

Sandy I agree with what you are saying and it is true women work a lot better in many stress situations.
What they say on the TV is not quite true as the lady in question will be returning to her original job and roumours are she might move over to Joint Chiefs office. I doubt personnaly if she will last more than two years with the Armed Forces as the offers are being made already and she is on the head hunting list in London according to a freind of mine.
I think if we are to include women then the whole measure of what their role will be has to be taken into account and then a course should be designed around the needs and to help compliment the changes in role. Lets face it as you say Wrens have worked with RM for years , do they need to do the course? Many as I have said before do it for fun, parts of that is.
The main problem will always be integration and how it is achieved.
The fact is that I doubt we will see another woman on the course for months if not years, so has it been a good thing or bad.
As for the Political aspect, well we will never know how far it was made to go or why it became so damn important to see this lady get through, What would have happened if she hadn't???? well that would have been a whole new story and as they say she did it on the third attempt and you only get three.
I still doubt that this has been a cost effective exercise for RM and I think we will see a back lash over the coming months.

[harry hackedoff]

What`s that smell,

salmon?

trout?

Don`t know, but it`s definately "fishy"

Could it be that after the whispering campaign against a certain well known Brigadeer, that the spin doctors thought Royal needed a little help?

"Over the wall" so to speak.

"Tabloids, here I come"

Once swapped chewy with Jenny, so no hard feelings there, then, Sandy

"Cynical, moi?", surely not,

Aye, Harry

P.S. "sleep her way to a green lid?" I once shagged my way to the top, but that was in a room full of matresses, accompanied by the rest of the section. We were wearing nothing but our fighting orders and the young lady in question liked to The rest of this post has been edited by Nomad, you`ve gone too far this time, and it's us who are Hackedoff

[ratso]

Harry gains celebrity staus only to be red carded and sent off......
You were a roadie for the Rolling Stones were you Harry....
How many requests for the un edited version have you had today????
I dare say you will get five bullets and out by the end of the evening....

[harry hackedoff]

Censor me would you?

Right then, if you haven`t replied to my e-mail by Thursday night I will reveal:-
1. The name of the establishment where this sort of indoor sport was commonplace.

2. The name of the well known Sigs Sgt. involved in the "spit roasting" competition( now outside and working in I.T.)

3. The name of the Wren R.S.

4. And the shop where they bought the equipment

Members, I am incensed. For the un-expurgated version, contact me by the usual means.

Hackedoff, indeed.

You don`t know what Hackedoff means

Aye,

Harry


This post makes more sense if you read the end of page three(appropriately enough )

[mmm]

Alright all
Having just spent an age reading all the comments on the subject of Capt T and her new headgear i would like to say that ,at the risk of being booed off on my first visit to this sight for some time, i agree fully with hat Rob Parry has to say on the subject. This is the 21st Century and it is about time you all woke and smelt the coffe. It was bound to happen one day. nothing stays the same forever.
I say give the girl some credit for what she has achieved. She would have sweated just as much as we did and must have showed a great deal of determination to keep ata it. i wonder how many of us would have done the same had wenot made it first time round.
As for the politics and the publicity- not her fault. A product of the times in which we live. You do'nt have to like it but might as well accept it!
Steve C-G

[mmm]

sorry rob did not mean to call you a hat just missed a w