MOD caught cutting corners to save on pensions....again
This story will be hitting the headlines again very soon. Monday to be exact, at first it was thought only the Army was subject to this policy abuse.. we were wrong. If you or you know people that was, please keep your eyes peeled for monday both papers and evening news programs will be highlighting some damming evidence that will hit Hoon and co were it hurts
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Manning control is a policy used by the army to dismiss soldiers who are considered to be 'not fit for a full army career' to make space for other recruits. All soldiers can be reviewed after 6, 9, and 12 years in the Army and dismissed if considered surplus to requirements. Because of the stigma attached to being sacked, many soldiers elect to jump before they are pushed after they have been warned. In this way, official figures about the number of people sacked hide the true numbers of people who are slated to be sacked. A leading legal professional stated that Manning Control is deceitful, disgraceful and an insult to our service personnel protecting this country.
2. Why is there so much fuss about Manning Control Points?
This policy has been rigorously abused by various units Commanding Officers to get rid of their “Dead Wood” .In lament terms , people they don’t think should serve a full career for whatever reason. These have included “So called troublemakers”, soldiers with long term injuries and health problems. Also included were Gulf war veterans including those who had contracted Gulf War Syndrome and other illnesses. There was also evidence to show soldiers were kicked out because of various family problems, that was out there control such as terminal illnesses etc.
The Liberal Democrats revealed documents in July 2003 that showed a soldier had been denied a medical discharge and fired under manning control regulations instead, because it was cheaper. The letter from the Army Personnel Centre in Glasgow to the soldier's Commanding Officer acknowledged that it was MoD policy to cut the number of medical discharges and sack people instead because it was cheaper. The letter said: "You will also be aware that he escaped his last MCP only because it was assumed he would have been medically discharged by this time, a factor confused by a change to medical board guidelines which effectively reduced the number of personnel discharged on medical grounds - opting instead for administrative discharges to reduce the budget requirements to the MoD (Army)."
Over 600 soldiers are preparing a class action suit against the MoD because they allege they were hoodwinked or bullied into leaving the army or signing onto short term contracts with less employment protection through abuse of the manning control system. Being threatened with manning control and then pressured to voluntarily leave is commonly known as 'brown lettering'. Aggrieved soldiers have set up a website on www.expra.co.uk under Manning Control Link which is dedicated to those who believe they have been unfairly dismissed from the Army in this way.
3. How much money can the MOD save by releasing a soldier at His/Her MCP point?
Those who leave at, for say at their 12 years MCP Point save the Treasury, on average, £200,000 each according to the MoD's own figures. [Better In Than Out - MoD, Army].
The MoD gives the soldier a resettlement grant of around £8000 and a pension when they reach sixty years of age of around £2000 a year .If the soldier served another 10 years service they could receive a lump sum on discharge of around £30.000 or more depending on rank. Also the soldier would receive straight away, a monthly pension of £400 a month or more, also depending on rank.
4 Can the soldier complain about the Manning Control Point?
Many of the soldiers currently suing filed complaints with the MoD's internal complaints procedure (called 'redress'). However, the Government claims that there have only been two applications for 'Redress of Complaint to the Army Board' since 1997.
Dr Moonie, former Under-Secretary of State at the MoD said that: "Since then there have been two applications for Redress of Complaint relating to the Manning Control Point policy, which were resolved before submission to the Army Board. In these cases, manning control action was terminated and the individuals concerned continue to serve on their original engagement." [23 Jan 2003: Column 447W]
The Liberal Democrats have seen documents showing that at least two soldiers had their applications turned down by the Board. We have also spoken to five soldiers who submitted applications for redress to the Army Board, four of whom were not granted redress and were sacked. And one of which, that of Cpl Paul Biddiss, is still going on after 3 years.
One of the soldiers was declared medically unfit by the NHS but was still administratively discharged. The letter denying him redress from the Army Board, said: "We have read the redress of complaint submitted by X, and we have concluded that Cpl. X had no right to be granted a medical discharge and thus his discharge at the 12 year manning control point was justified. However, we accept that Cpl. X received his injury through no negligence on his part during normal military training, furthermore we note that the medical treatment for his injury on which we are not in a position to pass clinical judgement was administered by the Defence Medical Service, we also accept that he has been judged by the DHSS to be disabled. We therefore strongly recommend that Cpl. X insures that he receives any war disability pension to which he is entitled."
Either the Government has faulty records or else there has been a concerted effort to withhold information. In either case, whether deliberately or inadvertently, Ministers appear to have misled Parliament.
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MOD caught cutting corners to save on pensions....again
You all need to stop this MOD cutting nonsense. It is over. The U.K. Military CAN NOT BE any smaller. Period. Dot.
I have been reading about MOD cuts for years and years.
You need to start controlling your politicians. Any one of them that even acts like they are for MOD cutting, you need to get them fired, out of office or hang them for treason. Either will do. It has to STOP now.
Europe is all happy and peaceful now. Good deal. That is a good thing. If for some reason it goes bad inside a few years. You will not have any force at all worth mentioning. You can't just build up modern force structure instantly on a need. It takes some time. If the unthinkable was to happen, the way things are going now with the recent MOD cut proposals, you won't have a leg to stand on when you need it. On this matter: You all are just letting your politicians do what they want and not firing them.
I have been reading about MOD cuts for years and years.
You need to start controlling your politicians. Any one of them that even acts like they are for MOD cutting, you need to get them fired, out of office or hang them for treason. Either will do. It has to STOP now.
Europe is all happy and peaceful now. Good deal. That is a good thing. If for some reason it goes bad inside a few years. You will not have any force at all worth mentioning. You can't just build up modern force structure instantly on a need. It takes some time. If the unthinkable was to happen, the way things are going now with the recent MOD cut proposals, you won't have a leg to stand on when you need it. On this matter: You all are just letting your politicians do what they want and not firing them.
[b]ELP[/b]
[img]http://www.defrep.org/graphics/cell.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.defrep.org/graphics/cell.jpg[/img]
But what can you do? Riot? A vast majority of UK citizens were against the war in Iraq, but Blair just wouldn't listen. I'm sure we would all love to have "fired" him, but.....how? These cuts do have to stop. It's a matter of priorities. The government waste far too much money on pointless things, like advertising campaigns. "Here is a party political broadcast by the Labour Party..." (Then goes on to slag off the tories for 10 minutes- Okay, but wasn't this broadcast supposed to be about Labour, not Conservative?) And they spend huge amounts on their OWN pay packets, spending taxes on holidays and luxury homes. Then (I know this has been covered before) they spend money on nice new chairs for MOD civilian staff that cost £1000 each. And look at when the firefighters went on strike. We had soldiers doing their jobs for half the pay, I wonder how much profit the government made on that? Where did that money go?
I could go on and on. Our government regularly take the p*ss. I don't think I've ever met anyone who likes the way they run things, but we don't do anything about it because people don't know what to do. And if we did have a chance to get rid of this government, who then would run things? More politicians. The general view is, "they're all the same." Lying greedy b****rds that keep everyone in the dark under a blanket of lies. Nobody knows their real agenda.
I could go on and on. Our government regularly take the p*ss. I don't think I've ever met anyone who likes the way they run things, but we don't do anything about it because people don't know what to do. And if we did have a chance to get rid of this government, who then would run things? More politicians. The general view is, "they're all the same." Lying greedy b****rds that keep everyone in the dark under a blanket of lies. Nobody knows their real agenda.
"Some day a real rain will come and wash all the scum off the streets..."
Good words
however somthing is being done about it. "there are more ways to skin a cat"
http://pages.123-reg.co.uk/eve3-37327/e ... id134.html
however somthing is being done about it. "there are more ways to skin a cat"
http://pages.123-reg.co.uk/eve3-37327/e ... id134.html
When you have a socialised system that attacks and cannibalizes it's own military, you have 1. an act of desperation and 2. a regime on egg shells 3. those incharge working numbers to remain incharge. Then again while your own servicemen lose their earned benifit's and pensions, doesn't your government provide for the immigran's, illegal, legal, productive and lazy alike?
ELP it is only a matter of time if conservative voters in local elections don't get active here. Our cut's in the past and the one in the USAF and USN will surely be used as a malicious tool in some instances. Some people get what they deserve, but I saw some stuff in 1994 and 95 that was just plain wrong in down sizing.
I discourage young folks from serving, what do you get out of it anymore? GI Bill, wow. Student loans are 2% and forgiven if you teach a few years in many states. Travel? Yeah look here they go today. Places with oil aren't fun.
The pay is a joke until you make E-5.
The PX and Commissary aren't always top quality and cheaper and the medical and dental plan is a damn HMO once you retire, and the VA, have fun with them. This must be a western civilization thing?
ELP it is only a matter of time if conservative voters in local elections don't get active here. Our cut's in the past and the one in the USAF and USN will surely be used as a malicious tool in some instances. Some people get what they deserve, but I saw some stuff in 1994 and 95 that was just plain wrong in down sizing.
I discourage young folks from serving, what do you get out of it anymore? GI Bill, wow. Student loans are 2% and forgiven if you teach a few years in many states. Travel? Yeah look here they go today. Places with oil aren't fun.
The pay is a joke until you make E-5.
The PX and Commissary aren't always top quality and cheaper and the medical and dental plan is a damn HMO once you retire, and the VA, have fun with them. This must be a western civilization thing?
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
IMHO I think the recent cuts in the USAF and USN are OK. 2-3 meter CEP in any weather , cheap precision guided munitions, has proven it's worth, doesn't need a lot of resources to put them on target and air planning and "fragging" have grown by leaps and bounds to make the 1999 Yugo campaign Allied Force look like it was managed with stone age technology. So I don't have a problem with that. Put 2-3000k of these weps on a countries infrastructure inside of 24 hours and there isn't much left to shoot back at you. After enemy large SAMs and aircraft are killed you can pretty much do what you want and no one ( non-nuke ) is going to stop you from shooting fish in a barrel after that. Enough said.Whitey wrote:When you have a socialised system that attacks and cannibalizes it's own military, you have 1. an act of desperation and 2. a regime on egg shells 3. those incharge working numbers to remain incharge. Then again while your own servicemen lose their earned benifit's and pensions, doesn't your government provide for the immigran's, illegal, legal, productive and lazy alike?
ELP it is only a matter of time if conservative voters in local elections don't get active here. Our cut's in the past and the one in the USAF and USN will surely be used as a malicious tool in some instances. Some people get what they deserve, but I saw some stuff in 1994 and 95 that was just plain wrong in down sizing.
I discourage young folks from serving, what do you get out of it anymore? GI Bill, wow. Student loans are 2% and forgiven if you teach a few years in many states. Travel? Yeah look here they go today. Places with oil aren't fun.
The pay is a joke until you make E-5.
The PX and Commissary aren't always top quality and cheaper and the medical and dental plan is a damn HMO once you retire, and the VA, have fun with them. This must be a western civilization thing?
The U.S. Army? Well Whitey you know about that and your comment some time back on large standing armys says it all. ( It of course requires not getting into stupid stuff like Iraq ) . I don't believe in putting boots on the ground en masse outside the U.S. on any location I don't intend on keeping permanently. So much for that.
As for the U.K. MOD. My point is that it is getting beyond ridiculous. Scary even. And I don't like it.
[b]ELP[/b]
[img]http://www.defrep.org/graphics/cell.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.defrep.org/graphics/cell.jpg[/img]
Well our Army and Marines would be glad to have some folks who spoke English, we take illegal Mexicans. Brit's would be a God send. Any of you Brit's want to be in our Army? They are making it bigger? 
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
The "conservatives" and the "liberals" ought to be able to agree on one thing: Much closer watch on the companies that make the weapons. Problem is that members of Congress are addicted to the spending in their districts, and you've got a bunch of Democrats effectively intimidated into voting for things because they'll be smeared as "unpatriotic" otherwise. Meanwhile, we continue to pay more and more for the same or less.
Yeah I suppose there was a whining factor there. Not that the right-wingers ever whine. 
But I'd stand by a belief that the only way to ever really get the military contractors into shape is through bipartisan consensus, and that's pretty hard to achieve if anyone who wants to hold their feet to the fire is branded unpatriotic.
The Democrats have done something similar to the Republicans for years on Social Security and Medicare, and as a result there is no significant change to those programs. Which frankly is o.k. by me, but I can't quite see what advantage right-wing politicians see in paying way too much for weapons.
But I'd stand by a belief that the only way to ever really get the military contractors into shape is through bipartisan consensus, and that's pretty hard to achieve if anyone who wants to hold their feet to the fire is branded unpatriotic. The Democrats have done something similar to the Republicans for years on Social Security and Medicare, and as a result there is no significant change to those programs. Which frankly is o.k. by me, but I can't quite see what advantage right-wing politicians see in paying way too much for weapons.
GETTING BACK ON TOPIC
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai.../09/ixhome.html
MoD knew sackings could be challenged
By Michael Smith, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 09/08/2004)
The Ministry of Defence knew six years ago that a system used to sack soldiers was open to legal challenge as unfair dismissal.
A newly obtained document, written in May 2002, a few weeks after the Telegraph revealed the way in which the "manning control" system was being used, said the Army was "concerned" that it could be challenged under the Employment Rights Act.
It detailed talks between ministers and MoD civil servants on how to prevent soldiers taking the Army to employment tribunals for "general unfair dismissal".
The briefing paper, to be revealed on Channel 4 News tonight, shows civil servants telling ministers that exemption from the Act could be obtained via an order-in-council but this could only happen with Parliament's consent.
The alternative was to seek an exemption under EU legislation. "This would have the advantage of not drawing attention to the fact that the unfair dismissal provisions of the Act were not being activated," the document says.
The manning control system used a clause in soldiers' contracts that allows the Army to get rid of them after 12 years.
Critics say it was misused to save money on pensions. They cite cases of soldiers who were "manning controlled" to take them off a long-term contract, that qualified them for an immediate pension, and then re-employed on short-term contracts.
Hundreds of soldiers who say they were victims of "manning control" are preparing to take the Army to court.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai.../09/ixhome.html
MoD knew sackings could be challenged
By Michael Smith, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 09/08/2004)
The Ministry of Defence knew six years ago that a system used to sack soldiers was open to legal challenge as unfair dismissal.
A newly obtained document, written in May 2002, a few weeks after the Telegraph revealed the way in which the "manning control" system was being used, said the Army was "concerned" that it could be challenged under the Employment Rights Act.
It detailed talks between ministers and MoD civil servants on how to prevent soldiers taking the Army to employment tribunals for "general unfair dismissal".
The briefing paper, to be revealed on Channel 4 News tonight, shows civil servants telling ministers that exemption from the Act could be obtained via an order-in-council but this could only happen with Parliament's consent.
The alternative was to seek an exemption under EU legislation. "This would have the advantage of not drawing attention to the fact that the unfair dismissal provisions of the Act were not being activated," the document says.
The manning control system used a clause in soldiers' contracts that allows the Army to get rid of them after 12 years.
Critics say it was misused to save money on pensions. They cite cases of soldiers who were "manning controlled" to take them off a long-term contract, that qualified them for an immediate pension, and then re-employed on short-term contracts.
Hundreds of soldiers who say they were victims of "manning control" are preparing to take the Army to court.
