IMO Harry is correct, time will be the judge of who was telling porkies re WMD and the perceived 45 minute threat.
Whitey could well be correct OIL! It has been a long considered opinion of mine that Iraq was trading in Oil (that amount that was permitted under UN sactions) in Euros, Iran were considering doing the same and Japan already does. The God Almighty$ was beginning to be ignored by some of the Giants, Industrialists and Oil Producers,
As Dubya has said recently the 'war on terror' will not be fought on US soil so read into The Middle East what you want to read, there are a lot of vested interests including the Oil Giant Halliburton, Vice President Cheyne and the Bush family.
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So, no WMD... does that change anything?
Spannerman, Whitey -
That's the first coherent explanation I've heard for oil being the major factor in going to war. Up to now I've tended to ignore most of the oil debate as the loss of Iraq's current output is hardly a threat to western economies and in any case Sadam depended on the revenues to support his regime so he was hardly likely to cut it off.
I'd never really looked at it from this other point of view before - do you really feel volume of oil being shifted could have a significant enough effect on the dollar to warrant going to war over? Surely there was more to it than that? (maybe I'm just being naive...)
Harry -
Fair enough if you believe the war was unjustified (and given what's been said above I'll have to at least reconsider my position) but I do have a question. As you said - the people of Iraq deserved better. I guess I'm wondering at what point - if any - it would be justified to get involved in someone elses problems?
The Second World War is a case in point - sure it ended up being a just war of good versus evil - particularly once the final solution was implemented - but when it started Britain and France went to war almost immediately and could not have known what was coming. Granted, the Germans had invaded another country which was certainly not the case at the beginning of this Iraq war, but at the same time was hardly beyond Sadam either.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to convince you that we should have been there, I'm just trying to figure out when and how war is ever justified...
That's the first coherent explanation I've heard for oil being the major factor in going to war. Up to now I've tended to ignore most of the oil debate as the loss of Iraq's current output is hardly a threat to western economies and in any case Sadam depended on the revenues to support his regime so he was hardly likely to cut it off.
I'd never really looked at it from this other point of view before - do you really feel volume of oil being shifted could have a significant enough effect on the dollar to warrant going to war over? Surely there was more to it than that? (maybe I'm just being naive...)
Harry -
Fair enough if you believe the war was unjustified (and given what's been said above I'll have to at least reconsider my position) but I do have a question. As you said - the people of Iraq deserved better. I guess I'm wondering at what point - if any - it would be justified to get involved in someone elses problems?
The Second World War is a case in point - sure it ended up being a just war of good versus evil - particularly once the final solution was implemented - but when it started Britain and France went to war almost immediately and could not have known what was coming. Granted, the Germans had invaded another country which was certainly not the case at the beginning of this Iraq war, but at the same time was hardly beyond Sadam either.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to convince you that we should have been there, I'm just trying to figure out when and how war is ever justified...
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Wholley
- Guest
Before entirely blaming the US on the oil subject.
Lets remember Rudyard Kipling's essay"The Great Game"
The rivalry between Russia and Great Britain for Empire in Asia.
Or,more precisely the fight for the oilfields of the Caspian Sea.
We are all in it wether we like it or not.
Stones and Glass houses.Until someone produces a REAL alternative to fossil fuel we are stuck with it.
As to the Haliburton/Cheney/Bush connection.Get real,read something that isn't produced by Barbara Striesand or Al Gore.
Wholley.
Lets remember Rudyard Kipling's essay"The Great Game"
The rivalry between Russia and Great Britain for Empire in Asia.
Or,more precisely the fight for the oilfields of the Caspian Sea.
We are all in it wether we like it or not.
Stones and Glass houses.Until someone produces a REAL alternative to fossil fuel we are stuck with it.
As to the Haliburton/Cheney/Bush connection.Get real,read something that isn't produced by Barbara Striesand or Al Gore.
Wholley.
"Why can't theses people just leave us alone?'
Bobby Lee
It isn't just our fault. But why can't we be like the Swiss, armed, rich and isolationist's? The reason why is because of the ignorant, do gooder f@#k nature of those peculiar people from the New England states. Their Quaker, Puritian, and general self righteous ideals and culture they feel is the standard to measure everythings good,bad right and wrong by is based. They can't leave people alone. They kept on with the South and finally got their way, were they satisfied? No, hell no they weren't. They went after the rest of the nation, then the hemisphere and now the world. Sad thing is the doo gooders leaders are not morally motivated but money motivated.
North 7
South 6 and remember, it's just half time.
They just can't leave well enough alone.
Even if they had their utopian way, they'd start looking closer at eachother to start some shit.
Bobby Lee
It isn't just our fault. But why can't we be like the Swiss, armed, rich and isolationist's? The reason why is because of the ignorant, do gooder f@#k nature of those peculiar people from the New England states. Their Quaker, Puritian, and general self righteous ideals and culture they feel is the standard to measure everythings good,bad right and wrong by is based. They can't leave people alone. They kept on with the South and finally got their way, were they satisfied? No, hell no they weren't. They went after the rest of the nation, then the hemisphere and now the world. Sad thing is the doo gooders leaders are not morally motivated but money motivated.
North 7
South 6 and remember, it's just half time.
They just can't leave well enough alone.
Even if they had their utopian way, they'd start looking closer at eachother to start some shit.
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)
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Guest
- Guest
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Frank S.
- Guest
It's all here, guys:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
I've mentioned this site before. It's worth taking time to read if you really want to figure it out.
Elliott Abrams, Gary Bauer, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney, Eliot A. Cohen, Midge Decter, Paula Dobriansky, Steve Forbes, Aaron Friedberg, Francis Fukuyama, Frank Gaffney, Fred C. Ikle, Donald Kagan, Zalmay Khalilzad, I. Lewis Libby, Norman Podhoretz,Dan Quayle, Peter W. Rodman, Stephen P. Rosen, Henry S. Rowen, Donald Rumsfeld, Vin Weber, George Weigel, Paul Wolfowitz and Bill Kristol in their own words.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
I've mentioned this site before. It's worth taking time to read if you really want to figure it out.
Elliott Abrams, Gary Bauer, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney, Eliot A. Cohen, Midge Decter, Paula Dobriansky, Steve Forbes, Aaron Friedberg, Francis Fukuyama, Frank Gaffney, Fred C. Ikle, Donald Kagan, Zalmay Khalilzad, I. Lewis Libby, Norman Podhoretz,Dan Quayle, Peter W. Rodman, Stephen P. Rosen, Henry S. Rowen, Donald Rumsfeld, Vin Weber, George Weigel, Paul Wolfowitz and Bill Kristol in their own words.
