Use of foreign weapons on Special Forces operations?

[Big Papa Hapa]

While I was reading Nigel Foster's "The Making of a Royal Marines Commando" (in particular the recount of an SBS operation to destroy a communications cable relay in Iraq), I began to wonder if Special Forces soldiers use "foreign" weapons during operations. Would they use AK-47's, atc., non-Nato ammunition? I just thought that might be one way of disguising an operation, should anyone find spent ammo casings, or if there were any bodies to be found, if one might determine the calibre of the round from the wound and deduce that a NATO group had been in operation there.

I'm really just thinking out loud here.

[chunky from york]

Big Papa


At first glance it is an idea with merit. But on serious thought it is decidedly dangerous. Rules of engagement apart, and this is what at the end of the day allows you kill someone without being charged with 'murder' firing an AK 47 at an allied soldier is to invite one and ones mates to be sat at the wrong end of a fire power demo.

The AK round makes a distinctive noise and the people who fire at it are on your side.

Yes we are all taught how to use them and respect the hell out of them, and even given all the moaning about the SA80 one would have to be in deep kimchee to use one for real.

[lew]

chunky

what are they like, they've stood the test of time havnt they???


lew

[barrybudden]

There was a program on CH4 or 5 last week super guns I think all about the m16 and ak 47 in Vietnam, it was very good. Cant remember much as I was sort of sleeping. The ak was designed to be a more robust weapon and to be fired automatic. The m16 was a more technically advanced and acurate with better range but in that theater the ak wone acording to the program due to the close ranges, penetration of the round, reliability and fire power of the weapon and it could be used in hand to hand fighting without breaking like the stock.

[Dave.Mil]

When I was out in the gulf(sound like uncle Albert) I noticed some of the Troopers(RAC not SF) kept disapppearing into a bunker, I wondered over for a look. They had found an AK and a ton of ammo and were having goes at firing into the wall on full auto. It was pretty reliable and very accurate over 2 metres, but as they say dont try this at home.

[voodoo sprout]

I'm not going to go on about AK47 vs 5.56 (which is what most SF units seem to use), as that's not really the subject of the thread. I haven't heard of anyone using foreign weapons to disguise their origin since WWII and most of the instances there seem to be more in order to look like the enemy and as such move around in their territory without being shot to bits. Jordan allegedly still has a unit with Israeli weapons and equipment to do the same job against Israel, but I haven't heard anything substancial about that.

However it does seem not too rare for this to happen for other reasons. The instances of US troops using locally acquired AK47's seems to be the most publicly known version of this, in Afghanistan US SF were using AK47's because they couldn't carry enough 5.56 to safely complete their misssions (cave clearing being the example cited, presumably they can't afford to go back for more ammo until the whole complex is secure). So if they picked up an AK47, they could take ammo from most of the enemy bodies and cache's. Of course some bright spark at Stoner came along and made an M4 modified to accept AK47 magazines/rounds, but I haven't heard if it was successful or not. Also in Iraq, some US troops are using AK's as their only other weapons are pistols which are insufficient for their needs.

The closest I've heard of the situation BPH mentioned is with the Israeli naval SF unit, Shayetet 13. They used to until very recently use the AK47 as their main weapon for amphibious operations, as it was more reliable than the other options when submerged and was best suited to them. The Palestinian targets for their operations however were then able to claim that the successful attacks were carried out by rival Palestinian groups, as they didn't want to admit they had let an Israeli unti get in, do damage and get away in one piece and so they saved face.

EDIT: One other thing, if units do use foreign weapon to disguise themselves, it's logical therefore that the whole thing was secret, and we wouldn't hear about them in the first place?

[Deniable_Operative]

The AK47 is good because it has excellent round penetration, but it's not as accurate as other ARs and AWs.

AK47s have been around a long time, and their tried and tested design has changed very little if at all. Simple. Solid.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The SAS are trained to use them in case the have to in a hostile environment.

[Big Boys Rules]

Not quite the same field that you're asking about but Telic was a classic example of shoddy kit making a big difference and improvisation became the order of the day.
You can see plenty of pictures of demolitions being carried out using "borrowed explosives" and to that end with a shortage of decent weapons sniper teams were after alternates for SA80s that they had to carry as the officers had all the brownings that they were normally issued, among other examples.