North Korea

[Guest]

nah that'd start WW3, NK say even an attempt to intercept their ships would be considered an act of war.

[BenChug]

Judging from those pictures, they know exactly where they keep there expensive 'stuff' so why dont yankie just bomb the mad lot of little freaks...problem solved? or created?

The production itself is a problem, however; North Korea has had a million man army digging bunkers for the last 50 years, you have to get the bunkers which contain or possibly contain the nuclear weapons the Stalin wannabees may or may not have. That or America needs to get its Star Wars program running properly, and Canada should damn well opt in I reckon.

Remeber the quote?

All evil needs to succeed is for good men to stand by and do nothing

There should be no doubt in anyones minds here that Kim Jung Il, is a mad clown who gets what he wants through threat of force and he needs the nuclear weapons in order to avoid the eventual retaliation of the rest of the world.

[FIRE]

It's difficult to judge the power of the North Korean army. The people of North Korea are brainwashed and willing to fight againtst the evil Americans. I think their "hardware" is outdated. The biggest danger are terroristic actions against South Korea, Japan or America.
Russia and China will not help North Korea like in the 50s because they are afraid to lose America's economical input.

Did anybody see the documentary about the kidnapping of Japanese people (also a child!) by the North Koreans on BBC last Sunday?

[Tony D]

If it came to war the US & no doubt UK would have no trouble taking care of them......


We'd secretly move the NHS to N. Korea that should be enough to destroy any country within hours.

[munky]

those anti-USA propaganda posters are f@#k scary

but just looking at that kimsoft website...

North Korea, which can and is willing to face up to the sole military superpower of the world, cannot be called a weak nation.

yes it can be called a weak nation. it's completely buggered. GDP per person of $1000 per year? ho ho ho! when was the last time you ate anything other than grass then, o-mighty special-forces hero-of-north-korea??

North Korea has made it clear that it will strike all US targets with all means, if the US mounted military attacks on North Korea.

i suspect that the plane-crashers on 11/9 did more damage to the usa homeland than any pikey north-korean missiles will ever, ever, ever do...

The US crew {of the spy plane} must have informed the base of the danger they were in, but no action was taken by the base. If Kim Jong Il had given the command, the MiGs would have shot down the US plane and returned to their base before the US could have scrambled war planes.

...and if george w. bush had given the command, north korea would be a bubbling wasteland of radioactive glass. what's his point? that north korean commanders are capable of - shock horror - ordering their subordinates about...?

North Korea's total war plan has two components: massive conventional warfare and weapons of mass destruction. If the US mounts a preemptive strike on North Korea's Yongbyon nuclear plants, North Korea will retaliate with weapons of mass destruction: North Korea will mount strategic nuclear attacks on the US targets.

1. north korea has not been proved to have any wmds. or, at least, no wmds that work. it probably does have the bomb, or a few, but...
2. their missiles can't reach the usa, because they're held together with spit and happy communist thoughts.

The US intelligence on North Korea is faulty at best. Donald Gregg, a former US ambassador to Seoul and a 30-year CIA veteran, said that even the best spy gadget in the US arsenal cannot read what's on Kim Jong Il's mind.

that's because it's hard to read a mind that doesn't exist.

North Korea has annual production capacity for 200,000 AK automatic guns, 3,000 heavy guns, 200 battle tanks, 400 armored cars and amphibious crafts.

...all bolted together using technology from the 1960s, using low-grade materials, made by uneducated cretins with beaurocratic quality control.

North Korea makes its own submarines

haaahahaa! so the one military product that *really* needs to be state-of-the-art, and they glue it together themselves? ho ho ho, see below...

Several small to medium hydro-power plants serve these {weapons-producing} plants so that it would be nearly impossible for the US to cut off power to the plants.

<cue dambuster's theme>

North Korea is the world most-tunneled nation. North Korea has 8,236 underground facilities that are linked by 547 km of tunnels. Beneath Pyongyang are a huge underground stadium and other facilities.

great! plenty of room for a victorious disney corporation to expand...

North Korea is mountainous and its coasts are long and jagged. The Korean peninsula is narrow on its waste. The Gulf War and the recent war in Iraq saw US tanks in open fields. Tank battles in Korea will be fought on hilly terrains without any close air cover, because North Korean fighters will engage US planes in close dog fights.

1. north korea's terrain is exactly the same as south korea's terrain, and exactly the same as japan's terrain, two areas that usa tank-commanders know rather a lot about...
2. north korean fighters...? see belowwww...

North Korea's fighter planes are ill-equipped for air-to-air combats at long distances. but they can hold their own in close-quarter air combats.

no they can't. they're shite. besides which, they won't get a chance to get close-quaters, because they'll be obliterated by those wonderful american fireworks a few hundred kilometres before their shitty old guns are even in range.

MiG21s are North Korea's main workhorse. The MiG21 debuted in 1965 in Vietnam and proved itself as an effective attack fighter. In 1999, North Korea bought 40 MiG21s from Kazakhstan.

ha! 1965!! that is a joke. a very funny joke, 'course, but a joke nonetheless...

In September 1996, a North Korean submarine got stranded at Kangrung, South Korea, and its crew abandoned the ship. Eleven of the crew committed suicide and the rest fought to the last man except one who was captured. In June 1998, another submarine got caught in fishing nets at Sokcho and its crew killed themselves. Such is the fighting spirit of North Korean soldiers.

yes! enormous f@#k-ups,, followed by suicide. such is the fighting spirit of the north korean soldiers!! i am trembling in my imperialist jackboots!!!



abandon hope, fellow western capitalist-pigdogs! we are so obviously defeated before we have begun...

[Guest]

so why are the Yanks in such a flap about it then?

and why should the rest of us be bothered?

[Jason The Argonaut]

The Korea Herald

'N.K. has no tech to fire nuclear arms'Rep. Chang Young-dalThe National Assembly's Defense Committee chief cast doubts about North Korea's capability to launch missiles bearing nuclear warheads, dismissing Pyongyang's recent nuclear threats as an act of diplomatic brinkmanship. "Although the North might have extracted weapons-grade plutonium, they do not have the capability of compressing a nuclear warhead to 500 kg or less so it can be loaded onto a missile," Rep. Chang Young-dal said in a recent interview with The Korea Herald.

Rep. Chang said he obtained the intelligence on the North's nuclear capability from Defense Minister Cho Young-kil when he attended a session of the parliamentary defense panel last Wednesday.

The committee chairman quoted the minister as saying that a nuclear warhead must be compressed down to this weight before it can be attached to missiles for launching.

Chang also dismissed a flurry of foreign news reports that suggested North Korea has already completed reprocessing spent fuel rods that could produce weapons-grade plutonium, or that Pyongyang was preparing to declare itself a nuclear power by Sept. 9.

"The recent reports are not accountable," he said. "It is our mutual belief - verified by information shared by the U.S. and South Korean governments - that North Korea has not reached that stage."

Chang, however, stressed that the North's severe economic hardship may lead the country to obtain technology essential to developing nuclear weapons.

"It (the possession of nuclear weapons) is translated as their means of survival, there is no country that feels more threatened than the North right now. It is their last negotiating card," he said.

Chang said it is therefore important for the international collective to relieve the sense of crisis from the North, assuring it of its survival without nuclear weapons and urging it to return to the international community.

"While it is difficult and impractical for the United States to attack the North considering the power of neighboring countries like Russia and China, not to mention North Korea having no power sources such as oil like Iraq had, North Korea has reached its extreme limit of poverty, making it untenable to reject the United States' nonaggression pact even verbally," Chang explained.

Chang also expressed optimism about the possibility of the United States and North Korea breaking though their differences diplomatically.

"I believe the wall will be broken at the second-round of bilateral or trilateral talks with North Korea when they open in the near future. The United States may have more to lose than gain by taking military action against the North, with it already in a state of confusion over the post-war project in Iraq."

"The Korean Peninsula also has relationships with other powerful states unlike Iraq, while the efficacy of the nuclear weapons card for the North seems to have lost its flare," Chang said.

On the controversial subject of the U.S. military base's realignment in the South, Chang said the repositioning of U.S. troops currently stationed north of the Han River to the south will raise tension on the Korean Peninsula.

"The movement of troops southward will create an effective range for missile attacks by the U.S. on the North, which will mean weaker negotiating power for both Koreas and a constant state of alertness in the North," he said.

"The relocation further south will also influence foreign investment in Seoul, which was greatly facilitated by having the U.S. military based in the neighborhood," Chang said. He added that the British defense minister recently told him that Britain would not be able to invest even $1 should the United States withdraw its troops from South Korea.

As for South Korea's participation in the U.S. Missile Defense program, Chang said it is the South Korean government and experts' stance that it is not "advisable or possible" in terms of geography and military capacity.

Regarding the Korean War armistice agreement, Chang said the two sides must build up a fundamental level of trust to establish a permanent peace regime on the Korean Peninsula.

To this end, he added, both North and South must be able to inform the other side of scheduled military drills simply by a phone call, and the authenticity of the call should be confirmed by an invitation to attend the counterpart's drills.

The Defense Minister-level talks should also be held regularly in order to build up trust and eventually persuade the United States to shift into peace mode, Chang said.

"I believe an environment has formed where it would be highly advantageous for the United States to assist the unification of the two Koreas, which will allow the country to secure stronger alliances and expand its influence amid the power rivalry Asia still has against Russia and China," he added.

(angiely@heraldm.com)


By Lee Joo-hee


2003.07.28

[munky]

so why are the Yanks in such a flap about it then?

and why should the rest of us be bothered?

yanks are in a flap about it for many reasons, probably the most honorable being because north korea - if it can produce nukes - will gladly flog them to anyone - *anyone* - who turns up on their doorstep with a large-enough suitcase of hard currency.

as for why the rest of us should be bothered; north korean missiles can't hit the uk, and they can't hit the usa, but they are in range of japan, and taiwan. and hong-kong, and singapore. and if any one of those places was attacked with a nuke then the entire world economy would go down the toilet and we'll all end up tossing off truckers for pennies. that's why

[Guest]

so why are the Yanks in such a flap about it then?

and why should the rest of us be bothered?

yanks are in a flap about it for many reasons, probably the most honorable being because north korea - if it can produce nukes - will gladly flog them to anyone - *anyone* - who turns up on their doorstep with a large-enough suitcase of hard currency.

as for why the rest of us should be bothered; north korean missiles can't hit the uk, and they can't hit the usa, but they are in range of japan, and taiwan. and hong-kong, and singapore. and if any one of those places was attacked with a nuke then the entire world economy would go down the toilet and we'll all end up tossing off truckers for pennies. that's why

Yeah just like Saddam was going to give WMD to al-Qaida. Sorry but im getting a sense of deja vu here, im afraid im not as trusting of our politicans as i used to be after the Iraq affair. Once again we will no doubt be told they have "intel" suggesting this that and the other. How do we know its not just a big hoohaa to get funding for their National Missile Defence project?

Also i seriously doubt NK would launch a strike unless attacked first. I say the Yanks should quit making threats, stand down the B2 bombers and resolve this through diplomacy and negotiation. If NK already has nukes then its too late anyway.

[BenChug]

Well technically we are still 'at war' with North Korea though eh.
We have been in a Cease Fire for the last 50 years, which has never been resolved with negotiations, plus the numerous violations which happen annually, as well as NK breaking its anti-nuclear treatys with the UN, resuming hostilities is a very plausible course of action, for the sake of world security.

[munky]

Yeah just like Saddam was going to give WMD to al-Qaida. Sorry but im getting a sense of deja vu here, im afraid im not as trusting of our politicans as i used to be after the Iraq affair.

Also i seriously doubt NK would launch a strike unless attacked first.

well, i agree with you over the deja vu. the nuke excuse is a flimsy one. and i also agree with you over the missile defence system - there are more intelligent ways to see if your body armour is working than to open fire in a police station.

but...

...i do believe that military action should be taken against north korea. my reasons are:



1. north korea has a population of over twenty million people, most of whom are peasants digging in the dirt for a living. they live in fear of the police. they live in fear of the secret services. they live in fear of not having enough food to eat next year, or not having enough heat to survive this year's winter. they live in fear of getting sick, because healthcare in north korea isn't exactly wonderful.

and the only reason they have this nightmare existance is because their "king" is a cretin, who uses his entire country to try and get even with the rest of the world, because he's a complete mentalist. i think the western world has a moral obligation to free these people, preferably by surgical strike but by other means if necessary - though not all-out full-on carpet-bombing, because that rarely does much good...

i mean, more people have died of starvation in north korea - as a direct result of their dictator's decisions - than were gassed by the nazis in the holocaust. call me idealistic but i think we need to do something about this, soon, because it's not going to get better.



2. the only reason that north korea is back in the news is because it is THEY who are rattling sabres, not the americans. the reason for north korea being included in bush's "axis of evil" speech was because - for some time previously - they've been acting all angry, making threats, making noises, because they want to bully the world into giving them more international aid, more food, more technical assistance, more money.

the reason for this is that - and forgive this simplicity - everything in north korea is falling apart. in the short-term past, the purse-strings from china and russia have been cut, so north-korea's pocket-money from its fraternal communist allies has stopped flowing; the ussr fell apart and china doesn't want to be seen to the west as stirring up trouble. this has caused a bit of a cash-flow crisis.

also, long-term, everything in north korea is rotten, or obsolete, or just worn-out. their factory machinery is fifty years old. their land has been plowed so many times and pumped so full of pesticides that nothing grows. their infrastructure is falling to bits. spare parts can't be found for cars. all this means that if something doesn't happen soon, the people will finally get fed up and revolt, and that's the end of that for the communist leadership. also, if they don't fight a war soon, they'll never be able to - fuel reserves and all the little bits and pieces that make an army function are in critically short supply.

their back is against the wall. they don't know what to do. they don't know what's going to happen to them. if they can't blackmail the rest of the world into giving them what they want now then - no two ways about it - it's game over. we can't let them be this unstable. something needs to be done. and better a bullet to the head than to let the whole corpse rot. if we don't get involved now they we have no control. what if china sends in troops to "calm the situation" when things finally snowball? what if the military take over? what if kim jong-il decides he'd rather go out in a blaze of nuclear glory than be pitchforked by one of his own protesting peasants?

like i say - if we don't get involved, we can't influence.



3. i have shares in raytheon and BAe

[Jason The Argonaut]

munky wrote:

1. north korea has a population of over twenty million people, most of whom are peasants digging in the dirt for a living. they live in fear of the police. they live in fear of the secret services. they live in fear of not having enough food to eat next year, or not having enough heat to survive this year's winter. they live in fear of getting sick, because healthcare in north korea isn't exactly wonderful.

and the only reason they have this nightmare existance is because their "king" is a cretin, who uses his entire country to try and get even with the rest of the world, because he's a complete mentalist. i think the western world has a moral obligation to free these people, preferably by surgical strike but by other means if necessary - though not all-out full-on carpet-bombing, because that rarely does much good...

i mean, more people have died of starvation in north korea - as a direct result of their dictator's decisions - than were gassed by the nazis in the holocaust. call me idealistic but i think we need to do something about this, soon, because it's not going to get better.

I dont think you first reason is a good one munky, just because people are have not got enough food and have bad healthcare is no reason to go to war with Korea. There are millions of other people all around the world in the same position, you can't attack a nation just because the people are hungry. If so then there would be allot more country's facing war.

You send aid to them feed them, if you start attacking Korea then that will just make the situation a shit lot worse. If the situation with Korea does get to the point where it's in our's and the worlds interest to attack then so be it.

But not because the people cant afford food of health care, that might sound unfair but that's life.

[munky]

i fully get your point there, jason; taking out the leadership of a starving country won't fill any stomachs. thing is, the north korean population is a lot better off than most of rest of the third world, or at least, could be - they're (surprisingly) very well educated, it's just that their demented leaders have squandered their talents and pissed away their potential.

i mean, the only difference between south korea and north korea is that the north is a dictatorship and the south is a democracy - the people are the same, the landscape is the same, the resources are the same. it's just that fifty years of criminal neglect by criminally insane communists has spunked the potential of twenty million people right up against the wall. there's no reason at all why north korea can't be as healthy and wealthy as the south. they're a clever and resourceful people. they have skilled workers. they have universities and hospitals and all the seeds of becomming a pretty nice place to live. they just need to - excuse the rhetoric - cast off the shackles of their feckwit "leaders".



it's not a case of having to build them a country from the ground up. just dust their current one off and patch up a few of the bigger holes. if we have the chance to dig these people out of the dirt, why shouldn't we...?

[Sisyphus]

I agree we should go to war with NK - and anyone else who's operating a corrupt regime.

Volunteers to join the fighting please line up. I might join the end of the queue once the war is over.

[Guest]

yeah well said^