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Firefighters getting on the soap box
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UtrinqueParatus
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EXREG
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Shoulderholster
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Your lads were not capable of doing our job in the Strike. My 12 year old Daughter and a group of her friends could hold a hose and with a bit of instruction get a 50 year old Pump to work.... if that is what you think this job is about you are very sadly deluded. For any of the 'expert' work, RTA's, BA... all very routine and everyday for us by the way... they called in the RAF and Navy Fire Crews.
As far as any number of complicated incidents that we attend, Hazmat jobs, Confined Rescues, serious Fires (These Fires were contained and not 'fought' during Fresco)...then forget it. I have a lot of respect for the Military, they are didcated, courageous, well trained and do a bloody good job despite the lack of suitable equipment and investment. Take pride in that...don't try to allude yourselves you are Firefighters...you are not. And please, get rid of the arrogant attitude that Military Personnel seem to have that "I've done that, anything else is a piece of piss from here on in" If you don't get rid of that attitude, you won't have it long in this job....Your biggest fear may have been your Ball breaking Sgt Major.... you will find plenty of people who bark and bite just as bad and possibly worse in this job, they, as many have found out will not tolerate your attitude toward your new job. You will probably find the ones who take exception the most will be those who spent a few years in the forces as a kid and have done 15-20 years of bloody sweaty Firefighting since!!!!
there you go...
As far as any number of complicated incidents that we attend, Hazmat jobs, Confined Rescues, serious Fires (These Fires were contained and not 'fought' during Fresco)...then forget it. I have a lot of respect for the Military, they are didcated, courageous, well trained and do a bloody good job despite the lack of suitable equipment and investment. Take pride in that...don't try to allude yourselves you are Firefighters...you are not. And please, get rid of the arrogant attitude that Military Personnel seem to have that "I've done that, anything else is a piece of piss from here on in" If you don't get rid of that attitude, you won't have it long in this job....Your biggest fear may have been your Ball breaking Sgt Major.... you will find plenty of people who bark and bite just as bad and possibly worse in this job, they, as many have found out will not tolerate your attitude toward your new job. You will probably find the ones who take exception the most will be those who spent a few years in the forces as a kid and have done 15-20 years of bloody sweaty Firefighting since!!!!
there you go...
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Shoulderholster
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Ex Reg
Thanks for taking the time to type that out,but it means nothing without the rest of the thread,its obviously one bloke retaliating to something that has been said to him,and means nothing without the whole thread.
Also remember that like this forum,other forums have nobbers posting as well.
SH
Thanks for taking the time to type that out,but it means nothing without the rest of the thread,its obviously one bloke retaliating to something that has been said to him,and means nothing without the whole thread.
Also remember that like this forum,other forums have nobbers posting as well.
SH
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Hostage_Negotiator
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Boxingmad wrote:Imagine the reaction if every soldier suddenly decided to lay down their guns & strike because of lack of resources, poor pay etc.
I think you'll find that's a slightly different action called "MUTINY"
"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy."
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UtrinqueParatus
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Sky Police
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I was intrigued with this so i registered with the forum.
This is the entire 1st page of the post. It's quite long though. I can post the other 2 pages if people dont have access to it yet and if they are required. Looks like a typical 'who's better' post though.
______________________________________
I get loads of emails from members of the armed forces, asking if they can transfer direct from the forces into the fire service. I then have to inform them that the two jobs and carreers, despite having similarities were discipline is concerned are totally different. After all, firefighters cant just transfer into the army etc.
So what is it that makes members of the armed forces think they can just transfer across, are they told something we dont know about ?
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 07:05 AM Post #2
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I think it is more of an assumption than anything else. When I was in the Army I remember saying things like "I don't know what I'll do when I get out, probably join the Prison Service, Fire Brigade or Police". It wasn't just me, we all said that! I think people serving in the forces used to, years ago, naturally slide over into these 3 jobs without too much resistance. Maybe the fact that the Army is sometimes called upon to man fire engines might lead some to believe that it may be a good stepping stone in.
The one thing I'll never forget is the shock of leaving the forces. I didn't, and I think that many are prepared for civvie street! The forces offer a very protective enviroment. If you imagine an unmarried soldier living on camp in the accommodation block with many others, day to day life can be sheltered from the "real World". Once out, trying to find a dentist, sorting out your own tax, finding accommodation can be scarey. Not getting a house for 200 quid a month!!!! I'll never forget all the bar room conversations about "I'll do this when I get out", what we didn't realise is that you have to work bloody hard to earn the same money as a civvie. I've been out of the Army for 10 years in Feb. I now take home, as a wholetime firefighter, about 150 quid less than I did before I left. I lived in the "block" which cost next to nothing, had the mother of all gym facilities to use free of charge, 42 days leave. free dental etc, etc
Now, with 2 kids and a partner, it costs me a grand per year to use the local leisure centre! I still see and talk to people now who say " I've had enough, I'm getting out" without quite realising what they are getting out to!!
I suppose my point is that as a soldier, I always felt that I was the bees knees. Whether this is bred into you for operational reasons or not????? But, I did think I could stroll into any civvy job. Maybe it is the same still. I don't think the people that have been contacting you are aware of the unavoidable selection process. Many of them may well be able to do a great job in the interveiw but, as we all know, it is GETTING to the interveiw that can be frustrating.
Andy
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 08:51 AM Post #3
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Yeah, same experience Skydive!
For some reason everyone was joining the Prison Service from my lot when I was leaving. What I do remember is the ones who were on the very last days on camp 'bigging up' the ease with which the application went through. There was also the assumption that the fact you were used to discipline would mean that you'd be snapped up by another employer.
Having gone through the application myself back then I realised (and in all truth knew anyway) that they were just stories put about by scared young men leaving their comfort zone. These stories then go into regimental folklore with people harking back...'Remember Smithy? Yeh well he got out and walked straight into the Prison/fire/police - they nearly bit his hand off! He was in within weeks and loving it.'
So I don't think the people e-mailing you are being told they can transfer, it's NAAFI talk and folklore. Plus as is mentioned above, being a single bloke in particular is such a cossetted environment on camp that you almost forget how to think for yourself. I certainly remember the horrible realisation thet no-one actually gave a sh*t that I used to be a soldier and that what I thought was great experience that would aid my job applications was viewed as time I'd spent away from the realities of life and meant I was probably further down the desirable employee list than a spotty 6th former who still lived at home with his mum.
Still wouldn't change a second of my life though
Julie Andrews
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 09:17 AM Post #4
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I joined the army (infantry) at sixteen with the expectation of making it my lifelong career. However after four years I decided to reconsider. I've been out (of the army ) for thirteen years now, having spent nine of them as a firefighter.
I could handle plodding around Northern Ireland with the slight possibility of being sniped or blown up, could handle sleeping in a puddle at the bottom of a fire trench, the enless tabbing, the drill ground BS, 72 hour guard duties, etc but I trained to fight and never got to do it.
Imagine the frustration of going to Fire training college, passing out, going to your station but never actually going to a shout and doing the job you trained to do. That's what it's like being an infantry soldier in peacetime.
The idea of training to do an exciting job and then doing it is what attracted me to the Fire Service.
However I never expected to, and didn't, walk straight into the job.
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 09:39 AM Post #5
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I know a couple of lads that were RAF firefighters that have transfered across, I feel sorry for the lads & lasses in the the RAF Fire Brigade as I have read a few times on here that certain people dont believe their training is up to scratch etc... I have to say that they do the same training in respect of home office standards, FS training manual, NVQ, operational procedures etc.. If I were a Chief fire officer I would not hesitate to transfer in one of these firefighters as i would do any other.
We appoint civvies with no fire service experiance in deputy chief fire officer jobs but we dont appoint firefighters with the same training standards!? it just doesn't make any sense to me.
On the forces thing I would rather have an ex squaddie on my watch with discipline and an attitude for work any day. If they have fire service experiance then why not transfer them in and well done to the brigades that do it already. Lets be honest brothers and sisters the rank to role is changing our service and in the not to distant future Firefighters from all areas of this job (Forces / airport / industry etc..) will be transfering directly across.
If they prove they have the training etc... I for one will welcome them in.
I await the backlash....
Pegasus
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 10:30 AM Post #6
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I know what you mean!! I left the Army after 6 years service in 2004, but at that time the "in" thing was going to Iraq/ Afghan to work as a PMC (private military contractor) looking after people. Back then if you came from my regiment you where guarenteed a job through word of mouth from guys you already knew over there, and I was offered two within the first week of leaving. The money was (and still is) excellent at £7500 uk sterling a month tax free (£250 a day), but once the missus and new born baby come along it does'nt seem worth being over there for double that!
When I come back I was told by a mate "join the ambulance/ police /fire service, they'll snap you up". I think the main reason people think they can join the fire service is because of covering the fire strike not so long back - alot of blokes thought it was unfair that firefighters got £26000pa - while they were dodging bullets in Iraq for £15000pa.
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 12:00 PM Post #7
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£26,000... load of old NAAFI room spin again. Jesus christ, back before the dispute I was a first Year Senior Officer, with 20% allowance for working 72 hours per week and London Weighting I was only on £36,000...the Firefighters of this country were on £20,000 (London ones a few Grand more) and for that they had to feed and cloth themselves and their kids and put a roof over their head... there spare time wasn't spent in the NAAFI talking sh1t about how easy life was in the Fire briagdfe...they'd be driving a lorry, labouring, building or whatever to make sure there was just a little bit for some pleasure after the bills were paid.
Yes it has got better now, but I still don't see many of us hitting the Times Rich list do you???
Things are very hot for the Military at the moment and the losses in Iraq and Afghanistan are truly terrible. However, members in the Military may care to remember that Policemen and Firemen have been laying down there F*ckiing lives on the streets of this country year in year out irrespective of War or Peace.
Not a good angle for this topic to go down on a Buletin Board full of Firemen!!!!!
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 12:12 PM Post #8
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QUOTE(Pegasus @ Jan 26 2007, 10:30 AM)
alot of blokes thought it was unfair that firefighters got £26000pa - while they were dodging bullets in Iraq for £15000pa.
Mate im one of the biggest supporters of our Armed Forces and my biggest regret in life is never having served in them early on in life and personally trhink National Service would be a great start to many a young mans life.... however
I often think this quote an odd comparison and I must add that I have heard it quite a few times..Why just Firefighters...Do they resent the Police with the same gusto, they are on more than us?
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 12:22 PM Post #9
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Got to agree with the last two posts pegasus, I for one have first hand knowledge of the forces and yes the pay is sh1t, however so is the ours. we all do the same thing in a round a bout way . . . . lay our lives on the line to help others. I have nothing but respect for the job our forces do but having now seen both sides of the fence this argument of we get paid this and you get paid that is just crap. I struggle on my wages now and I am on the 26,000pa bracket.
Back to the thread though eh? not the disputes of old.
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 12:44 PM Post #10
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QUOTE(Steve @ Jan 26 2007, 07:00 AM)
... their spare time wasn't spent in the NAAFI talking sh1t about how easy life was in the Fire briagde..
I was once told that it was my turn as an HQ officer to go talk to the recruits course (week 3) on what fire safety is all about so off I went. After an introduction to FS, I asked them if they had any questions.... telling them that I was not one of their instructors and they were free to ask anything they wanted, things they may not wish to ask the instructors. One guy asked how much more was there to learn in the next 9 weeks..... he and several others were visibally shocked when I told them. The guy who asked the question was an ex-infantryman. He joined thinking (before the days of modern way of selection) that after being able to strip down a machine gun and rebuild it in 1 minute or whatever and survive in any condition and etc etc that squirting water would be a piece of p$ss. He was and realised it, sadly mistaken in what he had been told about becoming a firefighter and what they do. He made it through recruits course and then left after several months saying that all the learning was too much for him and he couldn't go through the rest of his carreer in the fire service with constant learning and more learning. Anyone who thinks that becoming and remaining a fire fighter with or without the new selection tests and interviews is easy is very sadly mistaken.
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 02:17 PM Post #11
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Whoa there! Firstly I did'nt say the job was easy, if it was everyone would be doing it.
Secondly, Steve - I never said that those views were mine and I'm not gonna get into an argument about "I've saved more lives" or "my job is more dangerous". Lads in my Battalion were just abit annoyed that firefighters wanted more pay for doing there job when the soldiers were taking home about £1000 - £1200 a month (which is disgusting for the job they do to be honest). Then to be told you had to cover for someone who was getting £5000 a year more than you? And I dont see why Army guys don't have to feed or clothe themselves, Army rate accomodation for familys is very similar to civvi street where I was based (Aldershot). And to say they have'nt been laying down there lives just because of peace time, please do me a favour..... Northern Ireland, Sierra Leone, Kosovo and the intial entry into Afghan were in 'peacetime'.
And, whoever thinks £26000 a year is not enough is just crazy
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 02:41 PM Post #12
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Pegasus.......
I was in the Army and there was an old saying If you dont like it get out .... You cant tell me that the services would not go on strike if they were allowed to?
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 03:00 PM Post #13
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QUOTE(Billly_V_UK @ Jan 26 2007, 02:41 PM)
Pegasus.......
I was in the Army and there was an old saying If you dont like it get out .... You cant tell me that the services would not go on strike if they were allowed to?
I never said I or any of the other guys did'nt like it, and you cant just get out as you have a minimum term of service anyway (4 years).
What I was trying to get across is alot of the lads were capable of doing the job on the strike with minimal training and thought it was alot easier. Which raised the point "why should they strike for more money, when we can do the job just as well and we're on £15000".
Julie Andrews
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 03:16 PM Post #14
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The subject of pay is off topic from the original post but..
I don't get it. I knew before I joined that I wouldn't be getting paid a lot as an infantry soldier. If I'd have wanted more pay I would have gone for a different job, either within the army or in civvi street.
You know the pay scales before you join. If you think the pay is too little, don't apply.
Firefighters get paid more than infantry soldiers. If that bothers you apply to be a firefighter, not a soldier.
No?
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 03:39 PM Post #15
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QUOTE
when the soldiers were taking home about £1000 - £1200 a month (which is disgusting for the job they do to be honest). Then to be told you had to cover for someone who was getting £5000 a year more than you
these figures were well used by the government's press supporters during our strike. they are rather cleverly manipulating the truth. I remember one about an army man taking that home and his wife being unable to go out to work and earn some more because he was covering for striking firefighters, who earned £5,000 a year more anyway. What the story forgot to mention wewre the following points:
The Ff does not take home £400 a month more (the £5000 a year is around that a month), at that time a Ff on £20,000 would have been taking home around £1000 to 1200 a month - familiar amaount? He also doesn't get any accomodation at all. No food when on duty and no extra payments when sent to do the real job, not just back at barracks on training/rest. The soldier was in army accomodation, being fed at no cost and would earn more if on active duty. So, in terms of disposable income was actually earning more than the Ff. Aslo compare the pay now, a Private starts on £14,300 and goes up to £23,500 (basic without allowances) and this does not show the amount that the soldier gets in benefit in terms of non-contributory pension (the Ff pays 11% to their pension), food and accomodation. So who is better paid.............................
Now the lads were able to do the job when we were on strike? Did they have BA training, PPV, Tactical ventilation, understand compartment fire behaviour, carry out home risk assessments, give fire safety talks to schools......No. The very vast majority simply turned up and water squirted, th aprt of a Ff role that anyone can do, with differing levesl of efficiency. Anyone can pour water onto a fire, eventually it will ggo out, it may be that this would ahve taken the same time as the fire would have naturally self-exinguished but you couldn't tell. But go in and carry out searches, ventialtion etc, RTC extrication using the best techniques, deal with a Hazchem spill and more........... There was one tabloid (government supporting) frontpage story showing a heroic RN Ff carrying a child from a burning building, just rescued. A great 'look how well the MOD are coping story' but what the camera didn't show (and the Mirror did print this) was the on-strike Ff who had (with their appliance and colleagues) just come out of the building wearing BA having rescued the child and handed to the outside MOD staff! Of course there were many stories of the burnt out buildings that should have been saved, the MOD asking striking Ffs to help them and the striking crewws attending without being asked, but more than everything else the number of incidents was very, very much down due to increased public vigilance. The one success story was the Fire safety education message worked well.
Trying to use the 'look how much they are paid' argument is one that is going to lead the arguer into deep water. The jobs are not directly comparable. The entry requiremnts are nothing like the same, look at the entry tests to get into the FRS and compare with those to get in as a soldier, the well reported low levels of numeracy and literacy amongst soldiers may give an indication of this? What about the Police? A PC starts on £20,400 and goes up to £33,100! But gain the jobs are not directly comparable. The differing entry requirements and standards of the average grunt mean that they do tend to struggle to join the FRS, the good ones will succeed, but the similarities in PQAs are just not generally there. Believe me I have seen plenty of ex-Private/AB/Airman applications to be able to comment, the standards are often about what would be expected of the kid in school who joined the army, we all remember him. There are exceptions though and I have a number of excellent Ffs who came from the services, but they were the best of their type, not average or below and were no doubt well recognised as such in the MOD. Having said that most were NCOs.
This post has been edited by TandA: Jan 26 2007, 03:51 PM
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 03:43 PM Post #16
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Mate,
First off,
I am a little too long in the tooth to talk about who has saved more lives. I have done what I had to do in my career, I knew what was I was getting into and I and thousands like me have done it without keeping a score, without complaint and without getting medals.
£1000-£1200 per month...takes me back nicely to the biggest Coup de grâce of the whole dispute...a windy shed full of Infantrymen on Sky News covering the dispute, one of them showed his wage slip....£1200 for a months Pay....exactly what a qualified Ff was taking home at the time...without any of the benefits of the forces...yes benefits...My Mortgage alone is £1300 here in London. If HMG is charging that for Family acomodation in the Forces then you have my utter sympathy. Surprisingly, Sky never aired that report again, as soon as the spin doctors realised what a cock up that was it was removed from the bulletin before you could say 'Rupert Murdoch'
Your lads were not capable of doing our job in the Strike. My 12 year old Daughter and a group of her friends could hold a hose and with a bit of instruction get a 50 year old Pump to work.... if that is what you think this job is about you are very sadly deluded. For any of the 'expert' work, RTA's, BA... all very routine and everyday for us by the way... they called in the RAF and Navy Fire Crews.
As far as any number of complicated incidents that we attend, Hazmat jobs, Confined Rescues, serious Fires (These Fires were contained and not 'fought' during Fresco)...then forget it. I have a lot of respect for the Military, they are didcated, courageous, well trained and do a bloody good job despite the lack of suitable equipment and investment. Take pride in that...don't try to allude yourselves you are Firefighters...you are not. And please, get rid of the arrogant attitude that Military Personnel seem to have that "I've done that, anything else is a piece of piss from here on in" If you don't get rid of that attitude, you won't have it long in this job....Your biggest fear may have been your Ball breaking Sgt Major.... you will find plenty of people who bark and bite just as bad and possibly worse in this job, they, as many have found out will not tolerate your attitude toward your new job. You will probably find the ones who take exception the most will be those who spent a few years in the forces as a kid and have done 15-20 years of bloody sweaty Firefighting since!!!!
EDIT:
John, some great points there...it seems we were Ranting over our Keyboards at the same time. BTW, weren't you a former Military man??
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 03:47 PM Post #17
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Steve indeed we must have been similarly purple at the same time! No I am not ex-military, but have a load of experience of those who are. Well put argumnets, my points well supported!
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 03:55 PM Post #18
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I think the key difference that has been highlighted between Ff's and Military personnel is that we have the maturity, humility and intellegence to realise that the Military have a difficult and dangerous job, they are badly treated and dedicated to what they do... it's just they are not Firefighters, their eventual acceptance into the Service and subsequent Training is what turns them into Firefighters.
I see no such comments from Military personnel recognising the dangers of this job. I am a fully functioning, rational Human being capable of independent thought and analysis of evidence presented to me in various forms. I don't just believe what I am told by the next person up in the chain of command nor do I subscribe to group mentality... "They are all calling Ff's fat lazy, overpaid no good %^&*£ because the Telly said so and because the Sarge was told that by the Captain, therefore it must be true"!!!
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 07:07 PM Post #19
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So why does a firefighter deserve more pay than an infantry man? I did'nt understand why £20000 a year was'nt good enough, which works out as a take home of £1300 a month. Your mortgage in London may equal that but I expect your on alot more than £26000 a year!
The difference is a soldier goes to work and gets on with his job and does'nt twist about the wages. And if earning an extra £4.89 a day in Iraq/ Afghanistan is asking too much then sorry...but it is VERY well deserved believe me.
If our work on op fresco was'nt good enough, sorry, but with the little amount of training we were given (we only recieved 4 days training) I think we coped well. And if we did have full FF training I'm sure the job would have been done to a equal standard.
If the pay increase is due to the skills required, then howcome a soldiers skills are not recognised? My training lasted from the day I started till the day I left, but according to you guys the average soldier is a muppet who just gets told what to do by his "sarge" or "captain".
I am keen to join the fire service but I am still fiercely proud of the regiment I served in, and to be given the option of attending an incident with an ex paratrooper who has seen action all over the world and can deal with extremely stressfull situations, or a 18 year old just out of college I know which I would choose...
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 07:26 PM Post #20
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Pegasus
Just a tip mate get of your high horse you are a young lad and obviously proud of your regiments history, but most people here really do not care about the army, if you want advice in trying to join the fire service you are already rubbing a few of them up the wrong way, and after serving 14 years myself and been to a few more operational theatres than yourself in your vast four years it annoys me that you come on here just to put the fire service down is disgusting..... and very imature.
This is the entire 1st page of the post. It's quite long though. I can post the other 2 pages if people dont have access to it yet and if they are required. Looks like a typical 'who's better' post though.
______________________________________
I get loads of emails from members of the armed forces, asking if they can transfer direct from the forces into the fire service. I then have to inform them that the two jobs and carreers, despite having similarities were discipline is concerned are totally different. After all, firefighters cant just transfer into the army etc.
So what is it that makes members of the armed forces think they can just transfer across, are they told something we dont know about ?
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 07:05 AM Post #2
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I think it is more of an assumption than anything else. When I was in the Army I remember saying things like "I don't know what I'll do when I get out, probably join the Prison Service, Fire Brigade or Police". It wasn't just me, we all said that! I think people serving in the forces used to, years ago, naturally slide over into these 3 jobs without too much resistance. Maybe the fact that the Army is sometimes called upon to man fire engines might lead some to believe that it may be a good stepping stone in.
The one thing I'll never forget is the shock of leaving the forces. I didn't, and I think that many are prepared for civvie street! The forces offer a very protective enviroment. If you imagine an unmarried soldier living on camp in the accommodation block with many others, day to day life can be sheltered from the "real World". Once out, trying to find a dentist, sorting out your own tax, finding accommodation can be scarey. Not getting a house for 200 quid a month!!!! I'll never forget all the bar room conversations about "I'll do this when I get out", what we didn't realise is that you have to work bloody hard to earn the same money as a civvie. I've been out of the Army for 10 years in Feb. I now take home, as a wholetime firefighter, about 150 quid less than I did before I left. I lived in the "block" which cost next to nothing, had the mother of all gym facilities to use free of charge, 42 days leave. free dental etc, etc
Now, with 2 kids and a partner, it costs me a grand per year to use the local leisure centre! I still see and talk to people now who say " I've had enough, I'm getting out" without quite realising what they are getting out to!!
I suppose my point is that as a soldier, I always felt that I was the bees knees. Whether this is bred into you for operational reasons or not????? But, I did think I could stroll into any civvy job. Maybe it is the same still. I don't think the people that have been contacting you are aware of the unavoidable selection process. Many of them may well be able to do a great job in the interveiw but, as we all know, it is GETTING to the interveiw that can be frustrating.
Andy
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 08:51 AM Post #3
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Yeah, same experience Skydive!
For some reason everyone was joining the Prison Service from my lot when I was leaving. What I do remember is the ones who were on the very last days on camp 'bigging up' the ease with which the application went through. There was also the assumption that the fact you were used to discipline would mean that you'd be snapped up by another employer.
Having gone through the application myself back then I realised (and in all truth knew anyway) that they were just stories put about by scared young men leaving their comfort zone. These stories then go into regimental folklore with people harking back...'Remember Smithy? Yeh well he got out and walked straight into the Prison/fire/police - they nearly bit his hand off! He was in within weeks and loving it.'
So I don't think the people e-mailing you are being told they can transfer, it's NAAFI talk and folklore. Plus as is mentioned above, being a single bloke in particular is such a cossetted environment on camp that you almost forget how to think for yourself. I certainly remember the horrible realisation thet no-one actually gave a sh*t that I used to be a soldier and that what I thought was great experience that would aid my job applications was viewed as time I'd spent away from the realities of life and meant I was probably further down the desirable employee list than a spotty 6th former who still lived at home with his mum.
Still wouldn't change a second of my life though
Julie Andrews
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 09:17 AM Post #4
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I joined the army (infantry) at sixteen with the expectation of making it my lifelong career. However after four years I decided to reconsider. I've been out (of the army ) for thirteen years now, having spent nine of them as a firefighter.
I could handle plodding around Northern Ireland with the slight possibility of being sniped or blown up, could handle sleeping in a puddle at the bottom of a fire trench, the enless tabbing, the drill ground BS, 72 hour guard duties, etc but I trained to fight and never got to do it.
Imagine the frustration of going to Fire training college, passing out, going to your station but never actually going to a shout and doing the job you trained to do. That's what it's like being an infantry soldier in peacetime.
The idea of training to do an exciting job and then doing it is what attracted me to the Fire Service.
However I never expected to, and didn't, walk straight into the job.
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 09:39 AM Post #5
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I know a couple of lads that were RAF firefighters that have transfered across, I feel sorry for the lads & lasses in the the RAF Fire Brigade as I have read a few times on here that certain people dont believe their training is up to scratch etc... I have to say that they do the same training in respect of home office standards, FS training manual, NVQ, operational procedures etc.. If I were a Chief fire officer I would not hesitate to transfer in one of these firefighters as i would do any other.
We appoint civvies with no fire service experiance in deputy chief fire officer jobs but we dont appoint firefighters with the same training standards!? it just doesn't make any sense to me.
On the forces thing I would rather have an ex squaddie on my watch with discipline and an attitude for work any day. If they have fire service experiance then why not transfer them in and well done to the brigades that do it already. Lets be honest brothers and sisters the rank to role is changing our service and in the not to distant future Firefighters from all areas of this job (Forces / airport / industry etc..) will be transfering directly across.
If they prove they have the training etc... I for one will welcome them in.
I await the backlash....
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 10:30 AM Post #6
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I know what you mean!! I left the Army after 6 years service in 2004, but at that time the "in" thing was going to Iraq/ Afghan to work as a PMC (private military contractor) looking after people. Back then if you came from my regiment you where guarenteed a job through word of mouth from guys you already knew over there, and I was offered two within the first week of leaving. The money was (and still is) excellent at £7500 uk sterling a month tax free (£250 a day), but once the missus and new born baby come along it does'nt seem worth being over there for double that!
When I come back I was told by a mate "join the ambulance/ police /fire service, they'll snap you up". I think the main reason people think they can join the fire service is because of covering the fire strike not so long back - alot of blokes thought it was unfair that firefighters got £26000pa - while they were dodging bullets in Iraq for £15000pa.
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 12:00 PM Post #7
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£26,000... load of old NAAFI room spin again. Jesus christ, back before the dispute I was a first Year Senior Officer, with 20% allowance for working 72 hours per week and London Weighting I was only on £36,000...the Firefighters of this country were on £20,000 (London ones a few Grand more) and for that they had to feed and cloth themselves and their kids and put a roof over their head... there spare time wasn't spent in the NAAFI talking sh1t about how easy life was in the Fire briagdfe...they'd be driving a lorry, labouring, building or whatever to make sure there was just a little bit for some pleasure after the bills were paid.
Yes it has got better now, but I still don't see many of us hitting the Times Rich list do you???
Things are very hot for the Military at the moment and the losses in Iraq and Afghanistan are truly terrible. However, members in the Military may care to remember that Policemen and Firemen have been laying down there F*ckiing lives on the streets of this country year in year out irrespective of War or Peace.
Not a good angle for this topic to go down on a Buletin Board full of Firemen!!!!!
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 12:12 PM Post #8
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QUOTE(Pegasus @ Jan 26 2007, 10:30 AM)
alot of blokes thought it was unfair that firefighters got £26000pa - while they were dodging bullets in Iraq for £15000pa.
Mate im one of the biggest supporters of our Armed Forces and my biggest regret in life is never having served in them early on in life and personally trhink National Service would be a great start to many a young mans life.... however
I often think this quote an odd comparison and I must add that I have heard it quite a few times..Why just Firefighters...Do they resent the Police with the same gusto, they are on more than us?
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 12:22 PM Post #9
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Got to agree with the last two posts pegasus, I for one have first hand knowledge of the forces and yes the pay is sh1t, however so is the ours. we all do the same thing in a round a bout way . . . . lay our lives on the line to help others. I have nothing but respect for the job our forces do but having now seen both sides of the fence this argument of we get paid this and you get paid that is just crap. I struggle on my wages now and I am on the 26,000pa bracket.
Back to the thread though eh? not the disputes of old.
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 12:44 PM Post #10
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QUOTE(Steve @ Jan 26 2007, 07:00 AM)
... their spare time wasn't spent in the NAAFI talking sh1t about how easy life was in the Fire briagde..
I was once told that it was my turn as an HQ officer to go talk to the recruits course (week 3) on what fire safety is all about so off I went. After an introduction to FS, I asked them if they had any questions.... telling them that I was not one of their instructors and they were free to ask anything they wanted, things they may not wish to ask the instructors. One guy asked how much more was there to learn in the next 9 weeks..... he and several others were visibally shocked when I told them. The guy who asked the question was an ex-infantryman. He joined thinking (before the days of modern way of selection) that after being able to strip down a machine gun and rebuild it in 1 minute or whatever and survive in any condition and etc etc that squirting water would be a piece of p$ss. He was and realised it, sadly mistaken in what he had been told about becoming a firefighter and what they do. He made it through recruits course and then left after several months saying that all the learning was too much for him and he couldn't go through the rest of his carreer in the fire service with constant learning and more learning. Anyone who thinks that becoming and remaining a fire fighter with or without the new selection tests and interviews is easy is very sadly mistaken.
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 02:17 PM Post #11
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Whoa there! Firstly I did'nt say the job was easy, if it was everyone would be doing it.
Secondly, Steve - I never said that those views were mine and I'm not gonna get into an argument about "I've saved more lives" or "my job is more dangerous". Lads in my Battalion were just abit annoyed that firefighters wanted more pay for doing there job when the soldiers were taking home about £1000 - £1200 a month (which is disgusting for the job they do to be honest). Then to be told you had to cover for someone who was getting £5000 a year more than you? And I dont see why Army guys don't have to feed or clothe themselves, Army rate accomodation for familys is very similar to civvi street where I was based (Aldershot). And to say they have'nt been laying down there lives just because of peace time, please do me a favour..... Northern Ireland, Sierra Leone, Kosovo and the intial entry into Afghan were in 'peacetime'.
And, whoever thinks £26000 a year is not enough is just crazy
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 02:41 PM Post #12
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Pegasus.......
I was in the Army and there was an old saying If you dont like it get out .... You cant tell me that the services would not go on strike if they were allowed to?
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 03:00 PM Post #13
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QUOTE(Billly_V_UK @ Jan 26 2007, 02:41 PM)
Pegasus.......
I was in the Army and there was an old saying If you dont like it get out .... You cant tell me that the services would not go on strike if they were allowed to?
I never said I or any of the other guys did'nt like it, and you cant just get out as you have a minimum term of service anyway (4 years).
What I was trying to get across is alot of the lads were capable of doing the job on the strike with minimal training and thought it was alot easier. Which raised the point "why should they strike for more money, when we can do the job just as well and we're on £15000".
Julie Andrews
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 03:16 PM Post #14
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The subject of pay is off topic from the original post but..
I don't get it. I knew before I joined that I wouldn't be getting paid a lot as an infantry soldier. If I'd have wanted more pay I would have gone for a different job, either within the army or in civvi street.
You know the pay scales before you join. If you think the pay is too little, don't apply.
Firefighters get paid more than infantry soldiers. If that bothers you apply to be a firefighter, not a soldier.
No?
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 03:39 PM Post #15
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QUOTE
when the soldiers were taking home about £1000 - £1200 a month (which is disgusting for the job they do to be honest). Then to be told you had to cover for someone who was getting £5000 a year more than you
these figures were well used by the government's press supporters during our strike. they are rather cleverly manipulating the truth. I remember one about an army man taking that home and his wife being unable to go out to work and earn some more because he was covering for striking firefighters, who earned £5,000 a year more anyway. What the story forgot to mention wewre the following points:
The Ff does not take home £400 a month more (the £5000 a year is around that a month), at that time a Ff on £20,000 would have been taking home around £1000 to 1200 a month - familiar amaount? He also doesn't get any accomodation at all. No food when on duty and no extra payments when sent to do the real job, not just back at barracks on training/rest. The soldier was in army accomodation, being fed at no cost and would earn more if on active duty. So, in terms of disposable income was actually earning more than the Ff. Aslo compare the pay now, a Private starts on £14,300 and goes up to £23,500 (basic without allowances) and this does not show the amount that the soldier gets in benefit in terms of non-contributory pension (the Ff pays 11% to their pension), food and accomodation. So who is better paid.............................
Now the lads were able to do the job when we were on strike? Did they have BA training, PPV, Tactical ventilation, understand compartment fire behaviour, carry out home risk assessments, give fire safety talks to schools......No. The very vast majority simply turned up and water squirted, th aprt of a Ff role that anyone can do, with differing levesl of efficiency. Anyone can pour water onto a fire, eventually it will ggo out, it may be that this would ahve taken the same time as the fire would have naturally self-exinguished but you couldn't tell. But go in and carry out searches, ventialtion etc, RTC extrication using the best techniques, deal with a Hazchem spill and more........... There was one tabloid (government supporting) frontpage story showing a heroic RN Ff carrying a child from a burning building, just rescued. A great 'look how well the MOD are coping story' but what the camera didn't show (and the Mirror did print this) was the on-strike Ff who had (with their appliance and colleagues) just come out of the building wearing BA having rescued the child and handed to the outside MOD staff! Of course there were many stories of the burnt out buildings that should have been saved, the MOD asking striking Ffs to help them and the striking crewws attending without being asked, but more than everything else the number of incidents was very, very much down due to increased public vigilance. The one success story was the Fire safety education message worked well.
Trying to use the 'look how much they are paid' argument is one that is going to lead the arguer into deep water. The jobs are not directly comparable. The entry requiremnts are nothing like the same, look at the entry tests to get into the FRS and compare with those to get in as a soldier, the well reported low levels of numeracy and literacy amongst soldiers may give an indication of this? What about the Police? A PC starts on £20,400 and goes up to £33,100! But gain the jobs are not directly comparable. The differing entry requirements and standards of the average grunt mean that they do tend to struggle to join the FRS, the good ones will succeed, but the similarities in PQAs are just not generally there. Believe me I have seen plenty of ex-Private/AB/Airman applications to be able to comment, the standards are often about what would be expected of the kid in school who joined the army, we all remember him. There are exceptions though and I have a number of excellent Ffs who came from the services, but they were the best of their type, not average or below and were no doubt well recognised as such in the MOD. Having said that most were NCOs.
This post has been edited by TandA: Jan 26 2007, 03:51 PM
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 03:43 PM Post #16
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Mate,
First off,
I am a little too long in the tooth to talk about who has saved more lives. I have done what I had to do in my career, I knew what was I was getting into and I and thousands like me have done it without keeping a score, without complaint and without getting medals.
£1000-£1200 per month...takes me back nicely to the biggest Coup de grâce of the whole dispute...a windy shed full of Infantrymen on Sky News covering the dispute, one of them showed his wage slip....£1200 for a months Pay....exactly what a qualified Ff was taking home at the time...without any of the benefits of the forces...yes benefits...My Mortgage alone is £1300 here in London. If HMG is charging that for Family acomodation in the Forces then you have my utter sympathy. Surprisingly, Sky never aired that report again, as soon as the spin doctors realised what a cock up that was it was removed from the bulletin before you could say 'Rupert Murdoch'
Your lads were not capable of doing our job in the Strike. My 12 year old Daughter and a group of her friends could hold a hose and with a bit of instruction get a 50 year old Pump to work.... if that is what you think this job is about you are very sadly deluded. For any of the 'expert' work, RTA's, BA... all very routine and everyday for us by the way... they called in the RAF and Navy Fire Crews.
As far as any number of complicated incidents that we attend, Hazmat jobs, Confined Rescues, serious Fires (These Fires were contained and not 'fought' during Fresco)...then forget it. I have a lot of respect for the Military, they are didcated, courageous, well trained and do a bloody good job despite the lack of suitable equipment and investment. Take pride in that...don't try to allude yourselves you are Firefighters...you are not. And please, get rid of the arrogant attitude that Military Personnel seem to have that "I've done that, anything else is a piece of piss from here on in" If you don't get rid of that attitude, you won't have it long in this job....Your biggest fear may have been your Ball breaking Sgt Major.... you will find plenty of people who bark and bite just as bad and possibly worse in this job, they, as many have found out will not tolerate your attitude toward your new job. You will probably find the ones who take exception the most will be those who spent a few years in the forces as a kid and have done 15-20 years of bloody sweaty Firefighting since!!!!
EDIT:
John, some great points there...it seems we were Ranting over our Keyboards at the same time. BTW, weren't you a former Military man??
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 03:47 PM Post #17
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Steve indeed we must have been similarly purple at the same time! No I am not ex-military, but have a load of experience of those who are. Well put argumnets, my points well supported!
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 03:55 PM Post #18
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I think the key difference that has been highlighted between Ff's and Military personnel is that we have the maturity, humility and intellegence to realise that the Military have a difficult and dangerous job, they are badly treated and dedicated to what they do... it's just they are not Firefighters, their eventual acceptance into the Service and subsequent Training is what turns them into Firefighters.
I see no such comments from Military personnel recognising the dangers of this job. I am a fully functioning, rational Human being capable of independent thought and analysis of evidence presented to me in various forms. I don't just believe what I am told by the next person up in the chain of command nor do I subscribe to group mentality... "They are all calling Ff's fat lazy, overpaid no good %^&*£ because the Telly said so and because the Sarge was told that by the Captain, therefore it must be true"!!!
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 07:07 PM Post #19
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So why does a firefighter deserve more pay than an infantry man? I did'nt understand why £20000 a year was'nt good enough, which works out as a take home of £1300 a month. Your mortgage in London may equal that but I expect your on alot more than £26000 a year!
The difference is a soldier goes to work and gets on with his job and does'nt twist about the wages. And if earning an extra £4.89 a day in Iraq/ Afghanistan is asking too much then sorry...but it is VERY well deserved believe me.
If our work on op fresco was'nt good enough, sorry, but with the little amount of training we were given (we only recieved 4 days training) I think we coped well. And if we did have full FF training I'm sure the job would have been done to a equal standard.
If the pay increase is due to the skills required, then howcome a soldiers skills are not recognised? My training lasted from the day I started till the day I left, but according to you guys the average soldier is a muppet who just gets told what to do by his "sarge" or "captain".
I am keen to join the fire service but I am still fiercely proud of the regiment I served in, and to be given the option of attending an incident with an ex paratrooper who has seen action all over the world and can deal with extremely stressfull situations, or a 18 year old just out of college I know which I would choose...
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Find Member's Posts Jan 26 2007, 07:26 PM Post #20
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Pegasus
Just a tip mate get of your high horse you are a young lad and obviously proud of your regiments history, but most people here really do not care about the army, if you want advice in trying to join the fire service you are already rubbing a few of them up the wrong way, and after serving 14 years myself and been to a few more operational theatres than yourself in your vast four years it annoys me that you come on here just to put the fire service down is disgusting..... and very imature.
