Typhoon and it's gun

[Tab]

Once again the RAF are in trouble with this aircraft, once they had started to build the Typhoon the RAF decided that they could save some money by not putting the cannons on this fighter. They toght they could get away with putting a block of concrete in the plane to help balance it. Well it has turned out that the flight computer is so senistive that the weight has to be correct over the whole section of the cannon. Well the only way that they can do this is to equip the Typhoon with the correct cannon, but becuase they did not want it the plane it wont be wired to fire. Now they did think that they would save £90 million on this dodge but it has turned out that they might just save £2.5 million on the whole order.

Story from the Daily Telegraph 13/8/04 page 1

[The Cheat]

There's Hoon the Goon for you... And do we need the Typhoon? They way Hoon just slashed the RAF looks 2 me like he thinks we dont need the RAF as much (His words not mine)... Then Y even bother w/ the typhoon? The Harriers, Tornados and Jag's did fine... Y scrap them only to replace them w/ sumthing that does the same job? The days of facing a credible air threat from an enemy are gone... most of what we will be up against is the Soviet-esqe fighter bombers and 1950's american crap...We already get air supremacy as it is...No need for an even fancier gun... that doesn't even have a fancy gun anyway...

[Tab]

Well there are some great Russian fighter aircraft in some very dodgy hands, so a good interceptor is required. We can't always expect the Americans do our C.A.P for us. The Tornado was never much of a fighter interceptor that is why the American have always done the interception work with F18 or the Tom Cat.

[Seven]

It's the same as with cars. After twenty years it may drive as fast as the new ones but it will suffer in reliability. The Tornado has about the worst reliability record in NATO. I spoke to a Dutch F-16 pilot who did an exchange tour on the F.3, and he said there's almost always one that has a ground abort before take-off.

[ELP]

I read that article. It isn't any revelation. All jets need ballast to make sure the center of gravity is good. One of many examples: When the F-15 radar was upgraded years back, many of the boxes in the nose were smaller and lighter. Ballast had to be put in to keep the center of gravity true to the original design.

The gun thing in the Typhoon isn't any different. It doesn't matter what jet it is, ballast of some kind has to be put in if certain things are removed.

Typhoon will work out well. Since Tranche 3 will most likely die, they need to turn around and put in a new requirement to fund the air-to-ground systems. Just because some idiot decides to cancel that stuff doesn't mean the need went away. It hasn't.

Typhoon setup with the soon to be produced in Scotland Paveway IV ( not just a laser guided bomb kit but also a GPS assisted one .... = near all weather bombing for cheap money with kitted UK style dumb iron ) is what will make this a great multi-role jet. Tornado, like all swingers, is a maintenance pig compared to something like Typhoon. Jaguar was a great striker in its day, but can't do real air-to-air. The Typhoon can do it all and still be fairly cheap to operate ( just as a F-18E/F would be cheap to operate because of the latest maintenance methods ).

I hope Typhoon gets fielded in a sensible number and survives all this MOD craziness.

[The Cheat]

I still dont see the point in buying the Typhoon if We're gonna get the JSF as well? I may be just a bit short sighted but the only other country that i can think of that we could possibly go to war with that has this Russian gear is the North Koreans...and we just don't wana go there...

[Tab]

The JSF does not have the speed or the range of the Typhoon. The Typhoon can fly at twice the speed of sound at far greater hieght, where as the JSF will only fly just above mach 1. The difference is like a family saloon racing a forumla one, yet each are designed to do a certain job and will do it well.

[Seven]

Speed and range are not that important anymore. Range can be countered by using air-air refuelling. The JSF will start using external fuel tanks and other stores after a couple of days into the conflict, when stealth has become less important because the enemy's air defence system has been sufficiently destroyed.
As far as speed is concerned: Mach 2 will rarely be attainable for the Typhoon anyway due to underwing stores (which create more drag obviously) and it can only reach Mach 2 at high altitude. Air combat is more shoot and scoot these days, and we have an enormous radar and missile range advantage over our enemies, so speed is not that much of an issue anymore.

[rabby]

Just a boring point for all the eggheads out there :

and it can only reach Mach 2 at high altitude

Do you know the reason for this? I bet you think its because the air is thinner so there is less air resistance at high altitude.... That's not the reason.

At high altitude the air pressure is less, and at such altitudes, the speed of sound is actually SLOWER at high altitudes. So if you have 2 planes separated vertically by say, 50 thousand feet, they might be covering the distance over the ground, but the higher aircraft will technically be travelling faster.

So thats why a lot of aircraft claim to be flying faster than the actually are.

From a physics professor who know everything, so don't argue.

[Greg S]

They should have bought some good old mig-29's from the Russians. Cheaper and still bloody good (Harrier pilots are shit scared of them!).

[Greg S]

MIG 29 PERFORMANCE:

Max level speed:

at height: Mach 2.3 (1320 knots; 2445 km/h; 1520 mph)

at S/L: Mach 1.06 (700 knots; 1300 km/h; 805 mph)

Max rate of climb at S/L: 19,800 m (65,000 ft)/min

Service ceiling: 17,000 m (55,775 ft)

Range:

with max internal fuel: 810 nm (1500 km; 932 miles)

with underbelly auxiliary tank:

1133 nm (2100 km; 1305 miles)

g limits: above Mach 0.85: +7

below Mach 0.85: +9

EUROFIGHTER PERFORMANCE:

Maximum Speed 2125 km/hr
Time to 10670m 2.5 minutes
Runway Requirement 700m
T/O run 300m
air combat mission

Combat Radius ground attack, lo-lo-lo : 601 km
ground attack, hi-lo-hi : 1389 km
air defence with 3hr CAP : 185 km
air defence with 10-min loiter : 1389 km

G Limits +9/-3 w/ int fuel and two AIM-120
Weapons & Stores Internally mounted 27mm Mauser gun
Total of 13 external stores stations: 5 (incl one wet) under fuselage and 4 (incl one wet) under each wing
Mix of Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missiles (BVRAAM) and Short-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (SRAAM) carried externally
Four BVRAAM under fuselage in semi-conformal carriage configuration
Laser guided bombs
Advanced anti-armour weapons
Conventionally armed stand-off missiles

[ELP]

-MiG-29 is garbage for supply chain management and customer support. The avionics can't match a Typhoon. ( even though the air to ground testing on Typhoon isn't done yet.... the air to ground avionics/radar mode in the Typhoon is done and working well. The air-to-air radar mode has exceeded expectations. The MiG-29 won't be able to match the Typhoon on flightline maintenance either. Those methods are excellent. Including no more Form 700's for the aircrew to sign. Electronic forms and manuals. The jet is damn impressive.

-Stating a jet will do Mach 2 is a waste of time. By the time it gets to high speeds anywhere near that most of it's gas has been burned up. Not to mention when you start hanging stores on it; good luck.

-JSF for us ( U.S. ) anyway, is a huge waste of money. If the MOD was to cut one thing. I hope the JSF is it. It will be lucky to clear its weight problems. Especially the VTOL version. We will see.

-Typhoon, I don't think is a waste of money. Peace is in Europe. Great. Problem is if something was to go sour inside of 6 or 8 months, you can't just order up a bunch of extra Typhoons to deal with the problem. You need a credible quantity. You will always need something to be able to spank a SU-27 - 3x if needed. The Typhoon can do that. Once the air-to-ground stores are tested out you will be in great shape.

See if you can get the July 2004 issue of AIR International. ( Keymags UK ) . It has a good breakdown of the current Typhoon progress. Good reading.

[Guest]

As long as the Russkies planes are new and shiny, they are a kick-as*s machine....unfortunately, as you say, the customer support is 'krapola'... the avionics are a real weak point as the russ national radar system... controlled in its day by 'another authority' was supposed to take up that slack.

[Seven]

The JSF doesn't seem like a waste of money. What else is going to fill the gap left by the F-16 in 10-15 years? For my country anyway there's no other choice. The Typhoon is too expensive and even in it's final form only marginally better than the F-16 MLU (F-16C Block 52) is now. I suppose the same goes for most other countries that fly the F-16 now.

As for Russian jets. As long as you don't let them get close you are safe. Their missile/ helmet mounted sight combination are an absolute killer close in. Cockpit workload is extremely high and their radar and medium range missiles are crap.

[ELP]

Horses for courses I guess. For us anyway, The F-16 isn't what we use to roll in and dominate an airspace against a major player. It is a light bomb truck, that does nice in air to air once you punch off the wing stores ( an ECM pod or a mostly empty centerline drop tank being OK for doing hard maneuvers ). For us it breaks down into simple phases vs. a stiff air defense offense on the first few nights of a war-

1-Beat down enemy fighters and Large SAMs ( Kill off known MEZs ( Missile Engagement Zones ) , sensors, command and control ( or at least disrupt command and control ). Hit any other military support or government facilities where the strike ( manned or unmanned ) can get through the stiff air defense.

2-Once enemy fighters and Large SAMs, sensors are beaten down to a usable level, Stealth really isn't needed. We hit targets today with a complete contempt of engagement of Small SAMs, MANPADs, AAA and trashfire, by dropping Laser Guided and GPS Assisted ( the later in near any weather ) weapons from in many cases well above 35,000 and in some cases 40,000 ft. And hit with sub 4 meter accuracy. ( this is why Typhoon with the inexpensive all weather Paveway IV is so darn useful ).
So anyway, we can do this task with any non-stealth airframe that is handy. It doesn't matter much what it is.

3.If land warfare vs traditional conventional formations, is part of the operation. Once #1 is handled above, then comes "thinning the herd". Before friendly troops even come close to the enemy, B-52, B-1, F-14-18, etc. combined with locating targets with ( UAVs, U2, JSTARS, Specfors etc, airborne Forward Air Controllers in two seater's like F-14, 15, 18E/F , locate and store locations of tank/afv parks, POL, bridges where needed, dug in AFVs, Artillery, etc. And start killing these targets over days, using LGBs, JDAM, CBUs etc. After a time, you have a portion of those conventional formations that are nothing more than a semi-organized ( in some cases unorganized ) mob without any heavy equipment.

4. CAS -Close Air Support- For us, same as above except you have Ground FACs, (GFAC) and Airborne FACs calling JSTARS for requests. Aircraft that are loaded up for CAS missions take off without any targets, fly out and report to JSTARS and orbit around in the JSTARS "stack". The JSTARS coordinators get requests from the GFAC or airborne FAC calls out to JSTARS and describes their need. JSTARS looks to see who is available in the stack and assigns someone. Unlike the old days, CAS can now be done in garbage weather because of the gear the GFAC has and the new all weather Precision Guided Munitions ( PGMs ) that the jets have.

Notice that for us, we can do all that........ without JSF.


For all the worry I have over UK air assets if MOD would stop messing with them they would be just fine. Tornado has and is dropping Enhanced Paveway: The proof of concept for the Paveway IV. You are also getting your very own JSTARs like aircraft delivered in 2005: The R1 ASTOR doing flying tests in Texas now. Once Typhoon gets all setup with air to ground someday it will be a force to be feared. Not some lash up and not some incredibly expensive JSF. It can carry Storm Shadow cruise missiles and some other nice stand off things. And like I said, once you beat down the enemy air force and their large SAMs, you don't need a stealth jet. Want something better, cheaper, than JSF? Go for UCAVs for your extreme high threat strikes. Combined with rapid net centric targeting coordinated by your ASTOR, Not only will the fixed ( most important strategic targets are fixed the first few nights of a war. ) targets die, but the rapidly appearing targets of opportunity will die, and the targets that recede and no longer show means the UCAV is re-targeted. So as you don't have to depend on yet another yank program, I suggest you get busy with something on par with our X-45 UCAV. The X-45 UCAV program btw is progressing nicely ( flys and drops PGMs, and is manageable on the network ) and certainly making our money pit of a program JSF, look silly.
For us, we will still need manned aircraft. Thats why for us going ahead and producing F-16 CFT Block 60s over a long low volume production run to replace everything below Block 50 over time makes sense. The F-16 is dirt cheap to operate. With the new smart bused twin racks and the quad-racks coming out for the Small Diameter Bomb (SDB) and the ever awesome SNIPER-XR laser pod,... this is the way to go for us. Unfortunately we have a messed up military industrial complex. I doubt this will happen. The waste of money known as JSF will go through, unless some brilliant person with power, sees the light, and cancels it.
I know everyone has an opinion about something. I think that if pressure was taken off of the RAF and RN, that they are smart enough to field future technology. In the case of the Typhoon, all weather PGMs, ASTOR ( being the big hub for the net centric war ) that everything will work out fine. I would like to see it, but the way the crazys are going in the MOD, I am real worried about the future aircraft carriers. That could make JSF a non-event.

windows video ( .wmv file ) SFW ( Sensor Fused Weapon ) BLU-108 inside a CBU ( in this case a WCMD ) Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser ( A Dumb CBU container with a GPS assisted tail kit to get it over the right area before it breaks open to kick out its contents )

http://www.systems.textron.com/movies/sfw_2000.wmv

With that, NO AFV / or soft vehicle can live out in the open once it is detected by ASTOR... or any other source. It dies. ( so much for the A-10 or Apache being the best tank killer ) Hang a few CBU-105s on a Typhoon and it's playtime.