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Healey compares McNamara's war with his own.

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Pasha
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Healey compares McNamara's war with his own.

Post by Pasha »

An interesting piece by Lord Healey on Errol Morris' new documentary film about Robert S. McNamara. Interesting to me because he makes the, perhaps inevitable, comparison between America's conflict in Viet Nam and our own Confrontation with Indonesia.
Regards all.

Pasha

Denis Healey, former UK defence secretary, asks if The Fog of War does justice to his US counterpart

Friday March 26, 2004
The Guardian

 The Fog of War is an attempt to cover the career of Robert McNamara as US defense secretary in 107 minutes. I found the film disappointing, since it fails to cover either the brilliance of his mind or the complexity of his personality. It portrays him as both stilted and confusing, which he never was in real life. McNamara's own account in his memoir, In Retrospect, is far superior. As the great historian Arthur Schlesinger said: "It is brave, honest, honourable and altogether compelling."

McNamara was the able president of the Ford Motor Company when he was picked by President Kennedy to serve as his secretary of defense, just in time to deal with the Cuban missile crisis in which Khrushchev removed his nuclear missiles from Cuba and, in return, Kennedy removed his Jupiter and Thor missiles from Europe. McNamara was convinced that no American president would ever actually authorise the use of nuclear weapons unless the US was under direct attack, and was deeply worried that Britain or France might try to trigger a thermonuclear holocaust by using their nuclear weapons first.

This led to NATO adopting a policy of "flexible response" that envisaged the limited use of nuclear weapons against particular targets. However, this policy was never used in practise - the mere existence of nuclear weapons was sufficient to deter aggression.

The British defence ministry had already begun to adopt a range of planning, programming and budgeting techniques developed in the US by McNamara - which I carried further in several areas, since they were invaluable in my running battles with the Treasury. I always worked closely with McNamara, although he announced the cancellation of the Skybolt ballistic missile at London Airport without telling Macmillan in advance. A few weeks later, Kennedy offered Britain the Polaris intercontinental missile instead, without consulting any of his other allies - thus giving De Gaulle the excuse he wanted to veto Britain's entry into the Common Market.

His greatest weaknesses were his passion for numbers and his belief that wars could be won by bombing alone. We used to have breakfast together in Brussels before every meeting of NATO defence ministers. I once asked him how things were going in Vietnam. "Just fine," he replied. "Next month we'll be dropping twice the tonnage of bombs we are dropping this month."

In fact, the excessive use of bombers in Vietnam turned the whole of the local population against the west. At exactly the same period, when Britain was engaged in the "war of confrontation" against Indonesia, I refused to let the RAF drop a single bomb from an aircraft, relying wholly on fighting in the Borneo jungles with Gurkhas and our Special Forces - the SAS and SBS.

As a result, whereas millions of civilians were killed in Vietnam, and America lost the war there, in Borneo Britain won the war with fewer casualties than on the roads over a Bank Holiday weekend - probably the reason why in Britain nobody now remembers the war of confrontation, while Americans will never forget Vietnam.
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Post by Sully »

Your emphasis I presume me old mucker? Compelling point from someone with intimate knowledge of the affairs at the time. No doubt our contingent from the former colony will argue about the different scale of the two - but escalation is the point. I followed me old man in not liking Healey's politics but I think he was a hugely underrated statesman. On this he has no axe to grind.
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Post by Pasha »

Sorry :oops: emphasis is all mine. Shoddy editing by me: I stand before you corrected, humbled and chastised, and am currently whipping myself like a frenzied Shi'ite :lol:

We didn't follow the 'Healey tendency' in our house either, but the more I get to know about him (I'm trying to line up an interview vis-a-vis Op Claret) the more I find him to have been a pretty capable politician in the realms of Defence and Foreign affairs.
Regards mate!

Pasha
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Post by Sully »

I met him briefly once outside the seafarer's union building in Dover and those eyebrows have to be seen to be believed :o Anybody who can walk around like that (and in full public view) without feeling the need for some kind of 'maintenance' has a lot going for him. Poise, assurance - you name it :wink: Good luck on getting the interview. I read a cracking article a few years back describing a meeting of Heath, Powell and Benn over lunch and statesmen like that seem to be a rare thing these days. I think Healey is of that ilk. As I've said before, when ideology and principle have gone from politics, all that's left is ambition.

All the best

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Post by Ploggers »

A little of the point but did you see Tony Benn on Question time last night? You may not agree eith the mans politics but you have to admire his indepth grasp of so many subjects and the sheer vastness of his knowledge bank.
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Post by Sully »

PL, he's a hero of mine for a number of reasons. A good while back I stuck up for him on the forum and took a few hits. A mate of mine was captured, thwown wuffly to the gwound and held hostage in Bosnia a few years ago. The MOD (and the Corps I'm ashamed to say) were s**t but Tony Benn was his MP (Chesterfield) and went to see his mum and dad and took a direct personal interest in sorting it all out (which I think Gen Mike Rose did admirably in the end - something to do with the JRDF and waving a big s****ty stick :wink:) I think the man has a lot of integrity and could have had a much easier life as Viscount Stansgate. He was also a Navy pilot in WW2.
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Post by Ploggers »

When I was a lad and I watched him doing the CND thing I used to think "the gutless twat".

That is more a reflection on my lack of understanding at the time that a realistic assessment of Tony Benn. The guy never waivers on his principles or avoids a difficult subject. He tells it as he sees it.

When you listen to him he is extremely persuasive and he talks a lot of sense.

As I said; whether you agree with him or not you have to give the man respect for being an completely honest politician - we don't have too many of them!
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Post by Pasha »

He was also a Navy pilot in WW2.
Actually he was an RAF pilot stationed in Palestine. I once took a picture of him in his Parliamentary office for the Observer and he had loads of paper memos stuck in his ceiling with pencils. He told me that it was a 'filing system' that he adopted during his time with the Wild Blue Yonder crowd.

I agree that there was a generation of politicians that emerged in the post war era, who were passionate about their beliefs. Healey (who was a beach-master at Anzio), Benn and a fair few among the Tories and Liberals too, brought an intelligence to politics that has not been seen since.

I remember being shocked to see Benn acting as a pallbearer for Enoch Powell, but on reflection, I shouldn't have been. They were both from a grand parliamentarian tradition, where men and women could debate from polar opposites, with passion, conviction and intelligence without resorting to slanging invectives and cheap shots. I always had a soft spot for Paddy Ashdown who reminded me of that tradition.

Painfully aware that this has gone way off thread, equally conscious of my assistance in pushing along this tangent. Do the moderators fine us? :cry:
Regards!

Pasha
"To subdue the enemy without using force, is the acme of skill" Sun Tzu.
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Post by Andy O'Pray »

Who cares if you went slightly off thread Pasha, it has turned into an interesting topic. Recently there was a debate on this side of the pond, one of the participants was Tony Benn. I was never a supporter of Tony Benn' policies, but I must say that during the debate he came across as intelligent and very knowledgeable, to the point that he blew his North American co-participants out of the water.

Aye - Andy. :lol:
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Post by Artist »

Have mentioned my admiration for Tony Benn before.

He's a novelty. An honest politician who does not change his mind to suit the flow of the general concensus of the public. He is chock full of integrity. Something sadly lacking in most politicains nowadays whatever their Hue.

A few months ago he was reading his memoirs on radio 4 and it made for an interesting 15 minutes each morning. Funny, Sad, but honest. I just don't like his vision of what the world should be like.

Just hope his son follows in his fathers footsteps and does not Kow Tow to that gutless Ba**ard B'liar and his A*re licking minnions.

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Post by Mr Grimsdale »

I'm with most people here, I don't agree with his politics but the great thing about Tony Benn is his understanding and support of technology. Remember he was the champion of the TSR2 and Britains early space programme.

What might have been...
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Post by Pasha »

I believe that while he was Minister for Technology (a post formed under the first Wilson government), Benn also championed Concorde. I think that there are only two TSR2s left in Britain and one of them is in a museum (RAF Duxford).

Artist, Benn's son, Hilary is currently a junior minister in the Cabinet and more New Labour than his old man. However, as his father pointed out, "Benn's becoming more contrary as we grow older."
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Post by barryc »

I'm a Chesterfield lad by birth and returned their for a sort period post Corps, and during Tony Benn's tenure as the MP. I met him at one of his Surgeries, going as support to a colleague. Much as I am in conflict with Tony's politics I had to admire his integrity and knowledge. Along with his neighbour and old boy of my old school, the irrespressible Beast of Bolsover they provided North East Derbyshire with two genuine Parliamentarians. Obviously Dennis Skinner and I do not see eye to eye on politics either but from his still evident Derbyshire accent (mostly gone from me now) and his somewhat raw and pithy delivery he is true to himself, and to parliamentary principles. More than can be said of many who lie, cheat, pass the buck and refuse to resign no matter what.


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