Restore Order to the Realm

[ono_doken]

the likes of bin laden, who use religion to kill innocent people.... they are cowards and therfore do not deserve any rights.

If they are so religious, and understand it so much tehy would appreciate that many peoples belifes are not based upon a god or what ever.....

I agree that Warrior spirit comes from knwoing death is inevitable and should not be feared (but there are many many more concepts to it), hence my bit live and let live... the extremists ie/ al'quadea, taleban etc etc who openly attack civvies have no honour, and must therfore be treated as the cowards they are..... (another sore point perhaps but look back to pacific WW2, and the way the Japs treated prisioners...... at that point they were still very samurai based (look at Yamamoto, and the way he died, hand on tanto ready incase he survived the crash) they didnt consider being caught alive within the warrior spirit, and thus those who were not warriors did not deserve to be treated as such.. [no doubt there are many other issues around this and it isnt my intention to downcry any of our brave men who died at the hands of the japs, My loyalty has been and always will be with Britain and her forces....] )

we could go into a major debate about bushido but i dont think it'll get any where cos i know very few people who understand the core concepts. (nbforrest - i wouldnt mind haveing a chat with you though about it. I think you know perhaps a little about it ??)

My original point being though, if there religion is so good it doesnt need forcing upon people.......

[Frank S.]

I'm a tad leery of thinking of terrorists as 'cowards'. Yes of course, some may well be, but there is an implication of sub-humanity which I find a bit dangerous if it leads to contempt. Because it's dismissive.
Contempt leads to blindness. I can think of them in four letter words, but I just can't 'underestimate' them, if that makes sense. Many of their 'supporters', those who cheer them on, it's another story. But anyway...

I never felt pressure from religious people, living most of my life in 'the west', and I'm agnostic. It never bothered me as much as, say agressive advertising does. Or having jobs which require people to justify their continued employment to their employer. Or political correctness in the workplace. That sort of thing.
Now if I were an agnostic in some parts of the Middle-East, it'd be a different (maybe much shorter) story altogether.
As to what to do with the likes of Bin Laden, I say either put him on trial or top him, but let's not go 'medieval' on his a$$. We're better than that, or had better be.

[Whitey]

I agree Frank, terrorists aren't cowards. They take on suicide missions that soldiers here would refuse. The thing about terrorists is their target selection, they hit targets with civilians ect.. and this is thought of mistakenly as acts of cowardism, when the true label for this type of corruption to the true warrior spirit can only accurately be described as a-s-s hole behavior. So terrorists aren't cowards, they are ass holes.
Then again our cruise missiles have been known to hit civilians from time to time. So are we cowards, are we ass holes, or just not paying attention.

[ono_doken]

i refer to them as cowards 'cos thats just about the most offensive a person can be. They are an annoyance, nothing more nothing less.

Because they wanna kill 'emselves doesnt make them any less cowardice, The methods they choose to use and the fact that they have been told that they'll have x amount of virgins waiting for them [or whatever other incentive] . They more often or not choose civilian targets, dont announce themselves or anything, they dont give the civvies a chance. They have no honour, and should be treated as the scum they are! At least we have the decency of taretting military targets, accidents do happen though and its quite unfortunate.

whitey,

they hit targets with civilians ect.. and this is thought of mistakenly as acts of cowardism

-what is it then ?, they are looking for soft, easy targets that will almost guarntee sucess. Unannounced, unprovoked attacks on civvies are not the acts of an honourbale man......

They do it for publicity, they do it because they want to effect a change that would not occur without harming civvies (ie/ forcing a government to do somthing against its policies).

[Whitey]

I told you, hitting civilians makes them ass holes. We do the same though, just we use air express they use groud delivery for lack of airforce. I think the terrorists are emotionally charged and not very rational. The arabs are in a tight spot, they have no real army and they are feeling their culture, religion and land being tugged away. All this is comfort to them and when it is taken away or percieved as being taken away they act out, the weak minded first, but as far as being chicken, I think it takes balls to decided to self select yourself out.
We nailed dresden with fire bombs, the whole town, gone.. We have a history of nailing civilians. In the Civil War Grant and Sherman targeted civilians, Vietnam we napalmed and carpet bombed cities and villages ect.. to the point of our own humiliation.
The thing that gets me about this deal is no one has asked these people what they want, why they are doing what they are doing. So all we can do is call names back and forth and guess eachothers motives.
I for one am tired of living in a police state and having my life revolve around a color code. Like Marylin Manson said of Columnbine when asked what would he say to the two guys that went crazy, he said "I wouldn't say anything, I'd just listen." Maybe it is time we listen not to the terrorists necessarily but to the arabs. Instead of invading them and dictating how they will govern themselves ect..
If the cards were turned and the arabs were here in the US, occupying my land and pulling the strings of my government and skimming big contracts off of our resources, you bet I'd fight.
I just don't see a winner emerging from this war, its just going to keep going. At some point you have to talk, maybe that is what it will take to solve this, some talking, some recognition and respect from both sides.
BTW we killed more civilians in Afgahnistan than taliban, so this is another example of why this thing will keep going as long as we both ignore the core of the issue and trade blows.

[Greg S]

The real reason for the Afghan war was to lay down oil pipelines in Afghanistan.........

Oh well, thats the way things work in the real world. Destroying terrorist bases was a bonus though. This war on terrorism shold have caught Bin Laden by now........last night I looked at people jumping from the world trade center............made me REAL pissed off. THEY NEED TO BE CAUGHT!

Just search for FACTS and not the truth.

Truth is a matter of opinion - facts are REAL.

[Wholley]

Greg,
You really think that?
The reason we went to war in Afhganistan was to stop Al'Queda from killing anymore Americans.As you mentioned the sight of those poor people jumping from the Towers was reason enough to go to total war.
We could have turned that sorry little country into more of a waste land than it already is.We didn't.
Wait till it happen's in the UK.
Then give the knee jerk reaction that it's all about oil.
All we have to do for more oil is invade Alaska,but then we don't have to,we already bought it,from The former USSR.
All we have to do is stop the stupid Democrats from blocking drilling in Alaska for no good reason(Caribou)problem over.
Wholley.

[Andy O'Pray]

Wait till it happen's in the UK.

Wholley, it has happened in Britain since 1969, and they were supported by a certain segment of the American population. Had the UK forces taken the actions of the Israelis by destroying the homes of the local populace, who were suspected of harbouring terrorists, I can just imagine the outcry from the rest of the world, including America. Let us call a spade a spade. America will do anything to protect Israel, hence the situation in the Middle East at present.

Aye - Andy.

[Wholley]

Andy,
It has been happening in Great Britain long before 1969.
My point was the scale,and the possible reaction.
As to your point about American support for the IRA,I have always found it intolerable.It is,as I'm sure you understand a Boston and New York thing(Read,Joe Kennedy and the rest of his boys along with a certain Mayor of Boston.)The Clinton Administration allowed Gerry Adams a visa to enter the US so he could raise money for"Sinn Fein"Ronald Reagan refused him a visa as he was a suspected terrorist.How times change.Now the murderer has a seat in the British Parliament.Maybe some one could send him airfare to North Carolina.We in the South do not support terrorism of any kind.
Best regards,
Wholley.

Just as an adendum,I once lived in Boston and while at lunch with a few buddies,we were approached by some pr*cks in black beret's and sunglasses asking for a donation to the cause.
There was a stern reply from all of us.
I Won't repeat it for the sake of the ladies and younger members.

[Andy O'Pray]

I agree with you on one point wholley, the present fiasco in the Middle East has little to do about oil. It is more to do about the protection of Israel. The excuse to attack Afghanistan, the war with Iraq, the forced negotiations with Libya to ensure they gave up their WMD, forcing Iran to allow inspectors in to inspect their nuclear facilities. The pressure is now on for Syria to concede. Meanwhile Israel is being allowed to keep it's WMD and carry out atrocities against the Palastinian people. If the UN dare censor Israel for it's actions, their friend the US uses it's veto, in the very UN that they chose to ignore when going to war with Iraq.

I am more disgusted with the British government and their involvement in this fiasco, they should have known better. As for the oil, there is more oil reserves in the Alberta tar sands than there is in Iraq, but it is more expensive to retrieve.

As for Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness, they are still terrorists in my book. Nobody told me to take them off the most wanted list.

As an after note. When Israel's back was against the wall on day three of the six day war, Moshe Dian advocated using their nuclear arsenal. Thankfully cooler heads prevailed at that time.

Aye - Andy.

[dootybooty]

Andy I reccomend Jeremy Bowens book on the six day war if you want to find out about Israeli terrorism. I was in Aden when the six day war was on so missed much of the news. This book has given me a different perspective on the whole war and "poor little Israel " being ganged up on by all the Arab nations.

[Andy O'Pray]

Hi dootybooty, I was also in Aden during the six day war. We were sitting in the Sgts Mess watching the coverage on TV. Our Arab mess man got so excited and upset that he put his foot through our TV.

I will keep my eyes open for that book.

Aye - Andy.

[Pasha]

Gents,

There is an interesting piece in Soldier Magazine on Jeremy Bowen and it mentions his new book on the June War.
Regards

Pasha


http://www.soldiermagazine.co.uk/mag/my_army.htm

“When I was the correspondent in Jerusalem I felt that understanding 1967 was the key to the current situation. I took time off without pay to write the book.


“There were some real characters – Moshe Dayan, the one-eyed Jewish warrior, and King Hussein of Jordan, who was convinced he was going to lose the war and who only got involved because he thought he would otherwise lose his throne because the Palestinians in his kingdom would rise up. While other Israeli generals were raring to go, Yitzhak Rabin, who was the head of the Israeli Army, had a breakdown on the eve of war and was out of it for 24 hours.


“Everyone thinks of the Six-Day War as David versus Goliath, little Israel surrounded by huge Arab armies. Israel was very small but incredibly powerful, while the Arabs had big armies but did not know what to do with them. The Arabs hadn’t trained properly and underestimated the Israelis.”


Bowen is sceptical about the American-sponsored road map to peace.


“The Middle East seems complicated, but I don’t think it is really. Put simply, there is one piece of land and two sets of people who want it. The Palestinians are not going to scare the Israelis away with terrorism. Equally the Israelis cannot impose their will on the Palestinians.
“There is no military solution so there has to be a political deal. They have to split the land between them in a way that both sides regard as fair, or they won’t get peace.”

He believes many countries could take a lesson from the British Army. “It has learned about the application of force. Just because someone is shooting at you does not mean you have to blaze away back. There are other ways.”

[got1]

Hi Andy& Dootybooty,
My section was stagging on in Oscar 4 the police station in Shiek Othman,we always had a guy at the bottom of the stairs to the tower to cover our backs. We were up stairs when all hell broke loose in the police station . The police had been watching tele when the Israelies apparentlly won and the first thing they did was smash the tele to bits and became so aggitated that I thought we would have to bug out[we had a rope they didn't know about]The lad that was covering the stairs had seen it all and was pi..ing himself laughing .

[anglo-saxon]

deleted