Why cant I kill myself?

[Doc]

Morning,

I watched a programme the other night about physician assisted suicides and the debate that has built up around it. Very interesting.

I for one am in the camp where I believe and would support in the right for a terminally ill patient who had the awarness and mental capacity to make a choice, that if they so wished to kill themselves to ease their pain then they may so do.

Now, as a medic, I also have dedicated my life to saving lives. But one of the reasons I wouldnt entertain working in the civilian sector is that I am not a great believer in pumping vegetables full of drugs to prolong their lives on the basis of an oath and so called civilised values.

So much medicine these days, prolongs the mechanics of life, but can we call the existance life? What benefit to the patient or the family is there is prescribing drugs that maintain a blood pressure or a pulse, when the body cannot move, the impact erodes the quality of life of the family, and increases suffering of the patient?

It is of course an individual choice, some people are very ill, but are mentally stable, and if they want to live then they have that right. Others who know that the future holds more pain and suffering for themselves and family and want to die, surely have that right also. After all if the family pet is at a point when medical aid is of no benefit and suffering commences then we take them to the vet and inject them.

I am not supporting mass suicide of patients who offer no value to society, but if a patient makes an informed choice and wants to end their life with diginity when they still have the mental capacity to do so, they arent they allowed to?

The debate centred on patients who may have the mental will to die, but lake the physical capability to do it themselves, and in these cases can a doctor or carer legally and morally assist a suicide.

We do not choose to die, we do not chose to be born, life leads us down many paths some of which are not in our choosing. But if someone who choses to survive and fight for an expensive treatment that the nhs says has no econmic value, then surely the same argument can be applied to those that wish to die to ease suffering. Who are we to judge an individuals right to make a choice if their mental capacity allows them to do so.

I would never condon topping a veggie who cant make their own choice. But medicine is so biased to keeping the body warm, that we forget that whats more important is that the living actually live! Lead lives that the individual gains pleasure from.

The law being debated, is wrong, it is so broad even when the supporters maintain it isnt. No law can ever please every individual, but surely a case by case examination should be speedy and concerned with the patients wishes.

As a society it is argued that if we support suicide or assisted suicide we are morally wrong, I argue that by keeping people alive in pain, that without medication would have died long ago is also morally wrong. I am however not saying that people dont get treatment, and that no effort is spared in saving a life. But if every effort has been made and the prognosis remains unaltered, then if the patient then chooses to die, dont they have that right. What right do we have to pile a body full of drugs that has no mental or physical capacity or awarness of whats happening.

My father is currently undergoing chemo for cancer, I support this, I want him to live. But i mean live, not to come home or sit in a hospice dribbling, unable to function and depressed. And a few months or years down the line suffer and die. If in 6 months he asked me to top him I would, Id also suffer the consquences of my actions. Am I then a murderer, probably, but Im also doing the job I live to do, and that is maintain life, quality of life and dignity.

In the 1960's suicide became legal. How they'd prosecute someone who had been successful before that time is beyond me.

Military triage is the reverse of civilian triage, military medicine is geared toward maintaining the unit, therefore sometimes severe casualties are ignored so that the less injured are treated and return to the fight. Maybe that is what underlines my thoughts on this matter. But if I had 20 gunshots inwhich I could save all, or a 90 year old terminally ill patient who would require all my attention to "live" another few months, to me its a no brainer, no matter what my emotional involvement.

The bottom line is it comes down to the individuals right to choose, if they are so able. Who are we to either support or condon individual choice. The goverment and dudly do goods impose their will in so many areas of life, but they werent there last night when I had to bury a dead foal that died in birth, they werent there this morning to cook my breakfast. And thank god for that, its my life and aslong as I dont impact badly on others, I'll do what I farking well want. and if at 80 or sooner im dribbling and shitting myself, Id rather take a pill and drift away with whatever dignity I have left. Its my choice. And if my dad can make that choice but hasnt the physical capacity to follow it up, then Im sorry but I'll do it for him, so my families quality of life is improved, his death is dignified , his suffering reduced. I would go to prison aswell. Bottom line is it would be done with love.

The only law needed here, is that if someone requests it several times and all medicine is doing is keeping them "alive", then the person who assists should be neither judged or criminally prosecuted.

Some of you will argue that this belief opens the floodgates for some sick carer to top all that dribble, no, not at all. A process needs to be identified and followed, if it isnt then it is murder.

But how can maintaining a life against a sane persons wishes, be any less morally wrong that ending it.

Too much medicine is aimed at keeping the dead alive, and not the living healthier.

Some of you maybe ill or have close ones ill, dont worry Im not at all thinking of coming over to kill you all as your a drain on scoiety, I do support life and would do anything to keep even the strangest of strangers alive. But when does life and living become different realities?

[flo]

Doc i agree with you 100% on this one. Both myself and jed have made a pact that if any of us is put in the position where life or quality of life is no longer feasable then we would take matters into our own hands and suffer the consequences given. I watched my father die of a terminal brain tumour and i wanted to scream when they kept pumping him full of drugs to prolong his 'life'. All it did was prolong the embarrasement my father had to endure as being unable to feed himself and do everyday things like going to the toilet. For a grown man to be treated like a baby and cared for was humiliating and took away his basic rights as a human.

But if assisted suicide were to come into force (which i personally hope it does) who makes the distinction between life and living?

This is on the news today.........

Lords set for clash over assisted dying bill
LONDON (Reuters) - The House of Lords will debate a controversial right-to-die bill on Friday that would permit doctors to help terminally ill patients to die.

The assisted dying bill would allow doctors to prescribe, but not administer, lethal drugs to patients who are suffering unbearably and have less than six months to live. Opponents say if the bill became law it could be open to abuse, and religious leaders and sections of the medical profession are against it.

Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams is among those due to speak against the bill. Williams, Roman Catholic Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor and Chief Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks wrote a letter to The Times in which they oppose any measure to legalise assisted suicide or euthanasia. "Such a bill cannot guarantee that a right to die would not, for society's most vulnerable, become a duty to die," they wrote.

Campaigners against the bill say a petition signed by more than 100,000 people demanding an end to attempts to change the law will be handed in at Prime Minister Tony Blair's 10 Downing Street residence.

"We believe that this is a very bad bill and one that would create great problems for old and sick patients and the medical and nursing professions," said Peter Saunders, director of the Care not Killing campaign group.

A recent Royal College of Physicians poll showed 73 percent of its members are against any change in the law to allow assisted suicide by doctors or euthanasia. But supporters of the bill say doctors should be able to prescribe drugs that a terminally ill person suffering terrible pain could take to end his or her own life. "Even with the quality of our palliative care, some people will still want this option," said Deborah Annetts, chief executive of the Dignity in Dying pressure group.

Public opinion on the issue is split. A poll on Friday for Dignity in Dying showed three-quarters of people are in favour of a change in the law. Of 1,770 respondents questioned by YouGov for the survey, 76 percent supported assisted dying as long as safeguards were in place.

But a poll in the Sunday Telegraph last weekend showed 65 percent of people agreed that if the proposed law change went ahead, "vulnerable people could feel under pressure to opt for suicide".

All the political parties are allowing a free vote.

The debate comes four years after the death of one of the most high-profile campaigners for the right to die, Diane Pretty. The motor neurone disease sufferer took her case to the European Court of Human Rights but lost.

[Tab]

Doc ...I agree 100% with you, I for one would not want to be a cabbage sitting in corner, fed by a tube and crapping into a bag, this is not life or living as I would want to know it.

[Artist]

Agree to Doc.

Once I'm past me sell by date I want out.

Artist

[Doc]

So we are all in agreement that wholley needs to be topped then?

Only joking, just I posted a serious topic for once and had to slap myself and post something tongue in cheek to feel better

[flo]

Thank god you've admitted that, i was getting seriously worried about you......................HONEST!!!!

[HCR]

Well Im dead against it im affraid.

Yes, it sounds common sense when you have a terminally ill person in great pain asking for the right to die and under them circumstances then assisted suicides sound a good idea.

But how long will it be till the old and vulnerable who cost the NHS billions each year start to get pushed or bullied by NHS staff looking at balancing there books into agreeing to end there life's. Or the mentally ill who are not in control of there actions. Or even relatives wanting to get there hands on there inheritance. They are such people out there. Do we as a Country want to start killing people just because they cost us money because that's where it is heading believe me

Of course there will be guidelines and procedures to stop this but in years to come these get more relaxed or get missed altogether.

Now if someone takes there life themselfs then thats a different matter

[flo]

HCR i dont think it would be a 'right to pick and choose policy.' There would be strict guidelines in force and i dont think that the NHS would be given the right to pick those who do and those who dont.
It would have be a mutual decision between the person who is terminally ill and that of his immediate doctor and of course the family would be involved but the final desicion would be with the patient and they would have to be mentally sound to make that judgement.

As for the assisted suicide of mentally ill patients then that brings us into a totally different argument. I for one dont think that they should be included in this criteria because they are not able to make any reasonable decisions. And assisted suicide is a decison NOT to be taken lightly.

But all cases will have different aspects for and against, and i wouldnt like to be the modern day 'hangman' making the decisons whether to allow the assisted suicide to go ahead or not.

But, and there is always buts, if it was my child or partner lying there (god forbid) with no quality of life then Yes i would assist and i would have no regrets about making that decision.

[HCR]

flo said

But, and there is always buts, if it was my child or partner lying there (god forbid) with no quality of life then Yes i would assist and i would have no regrets about making that decision.

I know what you mean flo, I would feel the same under the same curcumstances.

This is Britain so I would imagine the strongest guidelines will be in place to make sure noone is abused or pushed into agreeing to die. But as the years role on some cases will slip through the net. And what about people who have no family its just them on there own. And how would we ever know its the true wish of the patient and not the doctor or family.

I feel once we go down that route that is it, the week and vunerable better watch there backs.

Now if and god forbid my Mam Dad, Wife or Children were in a position and wanted to die I would do it myself and let the Courts deal with it.

[flo]

The time may come when a patient is told that they hava terminal illness that they have an option to choose assisted suicide. That way the patient is mentally sound to make that judgement for themselves. At least if there are no family members they have made that call and it has not been left to GPS etc.

[HCR]

Now flo that might be away around it, good idea.

Its just that people have this picture in there head of a mentally sound person with a terinal illness in great pain surounded by a suportive family who just wants to die with dignity. And I can see the point there. But it wont always be like that. I just hope we as a Country dont start pushing and bullying people to agree to die to save money. Im not saying this will happen but it could one day.

[Mrs. Frank S.]

I must say that I agree with Doc and Flo on this one. I would like to have the right to end my own life if circumstances dictate. It's not because "I don't want to be a burden". It's because my own definition of life does NOT include dying slowly (Alzheimer's for one) or surviving only to need around-the-clock nursing care for the rest of my life. Obviously, that decison would need to be made while I was sound of mind (ooooh that's an interesting question ) or ahead of time.

I know there are those who's religious or cultural beliefs say it's wrong. I won't argue with that. I just don't want them to tell ME how to live...or die.

Julie

[HCR]

Belive me Julie I have no religious or cultural beliefs. Im just worried about the State getting involved. £ signs must be in the eyes of some NHS Managers.

I agree with people saying they would want to die or if there loved one wanted to die in them curcumstances. But like I said before I would do it. Because I would know its what I want or my loved one wants.
Anyway who would want that as a job.

[Mrs. Frank S.]

Trust me HCR, the comment about religious/cultural beliefs was not directed at you. It was merely a respectful nod to those who might believe differently.

I agree that having the state involved is worrisome at least...on both sides of the pond. However, unless we want ourselves, or our loved ones to go to prison for assisting in a suicide, they pretty much have to be involved. It can be bad, but they can also provide a few protections to prevent some of the abuses you described earlier. I also realize that they can be the cause of some of those same abuses (your medical system is a bit different than ours). Somewhere and somehow, there's a good compromise.

I would never opt for suicide (speaking only for myself) without a second, third, or even fourth opinion about my condition. Sometimes the diagnosis can be wrong, so there needs to be built-in protections for that. It's truly a complicated issue and one that needs to be discussed.

Julie

[HCR]

It's truly a complicated issue and one that needs to be discussed.

Could'nt agree more Julie.