9/11

[Seven]

They all have a common thread between them of trying to force you into a belief system for your own good (thanks but no thanks).

I agree, the problem is that right now, we are doing the exact same thing to them. You name fascim and communism but capitalism is a way of life just like the former. Capitalism may work very well for us, but that does not mean it will work well in other parts of the world. Right now, from their (meaning arabs/muslims in general) point of view, we are imposing our way of life upon them.

[jos]

Seven,
When I said previously

'So in cases like this the choices are stark – destroy them first or convert them to your way of life.'
I really meant convert them into leaving you alone – my mistake.

By Capitalism don’t you mean democracy?
Capitalism is only a monetary system based on free enterprise.

I agree we did try to impose a democratic system on others but that was an end result of the cold war between two super powers.

Democracy is another issue and doesn’t always travel well but can and is changed to suite the individual country. All the other system that are used lead to a loss of individual freedom but it is not for the West to impose democracy.
Most countries follow the ancient Greek democratic system, which is a belief in one-man one vote and freedom of individual choice in all matters because eventually that’s what their citizens clamour for.

A political system that is allowed to grow through debate, freedom from violence and individual choice tend to end up on the democratic system. History shows that most of the other systems are imposed by violence or the threat of violence.

[Seven]

You're right I should have said democracy, that was my mistake .

I'm not just talking about the cold war and frankly I don't know where we tried to impose democracy in that era. But right now in Iraq and Afghanistan we are trying to impose a system that these people have never known and are not interested in (well except for the few western educated people). In some countries it might prove to work, but these people have to find this out for themselves. We are probably a few centuries ahead of them in our development (as they were ahead of us centuries ago) and they have to go through the same motions we did.

[Frank S.]

From Reuters:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... ecurity_dc

Pakistan Source Under Cover When U.S. Confirmed Name

ISLAMABAD/LONDON (Reuters) - U.S. officials providing justification for anti-terrorism alerts revealed details about a Pakistani secret agent, and confirmed his name while he was working under cover in a sting operation, Pakistani sources said on Friday.

A Pakistani intelligence source told Reuters Mohammad Naeem Noor Khan, who was arrested in Lahore secretly last month, had been actively cooperating with intelligence agents to help catch al Qaeda operatives when his name appeared in U.S. newspapers.


"After his capture he admitted being an al Qaeda member and agreed to send e-mails to his contacts," a Pakistani intelligence source told Reuters. "He sent encoded e-mails and received encoded replies. He's a great hacker and even the U.S. agents said he was a computer whiz."


"He was cooperating with interrogators on Sunday and Monday and sent e-mails on both days," the source said.


The New York Times published a story on Monday saying U.S. officials had disclosed that a man arrested secretly in Pakistan was the source of the bulk of information leading to the security alerts.


The newspaper named him as Khan, although it did not say how it had learned his name. U.S. officials subsequently confirmed the name to other news organizations on Monday morning. None of the reports mentioned that Khan was working under cover at the time, helping to catch al Qaeda suspects.


President Bush (news - web sites) defended the "orange alert" raised in New York and Washington on Sunday and said his government had an obligation to inform the public of genuine threats.


"When we find out intelligence that is real, that threatens people, I believe we have an obligation as government to share that with people," Bush told journalists.


BRITISH SWOOP


A U.S. official said on Friday one of 12 suspects caught in raids in Britain this week was a senior al Qaeda figure, and Washington would try to extradite him.


But British police said they had been forced to carry out their swoop more hastily than planned -- a day after Khan's name appeared in the New York Times as the source of information behind the U.S. alerts.


On Monday evening, after Khan's name appeared, Pakistani officials moved him to a secret location.


The next day British police mounted the sweep that caught the 12 suspects. Such raids are normally carried out late at night or in the early morning, when suspects might be at home and less likely to resist.


But showing clear signs of haste, British police pounced in daylight. Some suspects were taken in shops; others were caught in a high-speed car chase.


A British anti-terrorism police source would not comment on the reason for their quick action, but confirmed the raids were carried out faster than planned: "It would be a fair assessment to say there was an urgency. Something can happen that prompts us to take action faster than we would," he told Reuters.


A U.S. counterterrorism official told Reuters on Friday that one of the 12 British detainees, known as Abu Musa al-Hindi or Abu Eisa al-Hindi, was a key al Qaeda operative in Britain: "This arrest is a big one."


WASHINGTON TO SEEK EXTRADITION

He said Hindi was centrally involved in an effort to case possible targets in the United States for al Qaeda attacks, and said Washington would seek to extradite him.

Britain has yet to identify or charge any of the suspects or confirm whether Hindi is among them.

Intelligence and security experts said they were surprised Washington would reveal information that could expose the name of a source during an ongoing law enforcement operation.

"If it's true that the Americans have unintentionally revealed the identity of another nation's intelligence agent, who appears to be working in the good of all of us, that is not only a fundamental intelligence flaw its also a monumental foreign relations blunder," security expert Paul Beaver, a former publisher of Jane's Defense Weekly, told Reuters.

Kevin Rosser, security expert at the London-based consultancy Control Risks Group, said such a disclosure was a risk that came with staging public alerts, but that authorities were meant to take special care not to ruin ongoing operations.

"When these public announcements are made they have to be supported with some evidence, and in addition to creating public anxiety and fatigue you can risk revealing sources and methods of sensitive operations," he said.

In a separate case, British police have arrested Londoner Babar Ahmad under a U.S. warrant alleging that he helped fund militants in Afghanistan and Chechnya. At his first court appearance on Friday Ahmed said he would fight extradition.
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Quote: "A British anti-terrorism police source would not comment on the reason for their quick action, but confirmed the raids were carried out faster than planned: "It would be a fair assessment to say there was an urgency. Something can happen that prompts us to take action faster than we would," he told Reuters. "

Yeah. What happened was someone in the US government blabbed out the name of the source during a press conference and the British had to move prematurely against their targets.
This reminds me of the Valerie Plame affair (the CIA agent whose cover was blown in the US media after her husband fr. amb. Wilson debunked the Niger yellowcake story).
Except that in this more recent case it's attributable to plain stupidity rather than the dirtiest of political gaming.
Either way, this is just another indicator of how we 'fight' this 'war' (if that's what it really is).
A bunch of Washington c*nts in suits dropping names.

[Marina]

Presently, I just feel there is so much paranoia going around on both sides. The West not trusting anything remotely muslim or Middle Eastern and vice versa. There needs to be more communication and integration at the grass roots level with community leaders, so representative communities do not feel threatened and vice versa.
Ever since 9/11, many secular muslims living in the West feel that they are put in a difficult position to prove their loyalty to both sides.

[Spannerman]

Presently, I just feel there is so much paranoia going around on both sides. The West not trusting anything remotely muslim or Middle Eastern and vice versa. There needs to be more communication and integration at the grass roots level with community leaders, so representative communities do not feel threatened and vice versa.
Ever since 9/11, many secular muslims living in the West feel that they are put in a difficult position to prove their loyalty to both sides.

I think the same applies here in the UK, damn sad I know, but thats how I feel, as someone once famously said, 'Hey Mr President, what about us white guys'

[harry hackedoff]

put in a difficult position to prove their loyalty to both sides.

Hmmm How would they manage that, then.

Speaking as an immigrant myself, I owe my primary allegiance to England, then the UK then Oz. It`s easy for me as I live in a country which has one third of it`s populace made up from English born. Scots, Welsh and Irish are next. Muslims of true Asian extraction( i.e. Malay or Indonesia for e.g.) are a sizeable minority and Indians, Pakistanis and Arabs are a rarity. Most people I meet here have backgrounds and cultures very similar to my own. Even Greek and Italians share my white European background. So for me it`s easy to assimilate and to feel patriotic to both England and WA..
I can`t say the same for muslim immigrants to the UK. It seems to me that they are almost solely, economic migrants. They are subject to entirely differant admission criteria, health care, social security benefits, etc etc, than I was when I arrived here. I had to prove, Prove mind you, that not only was I and my familly in a position to contribute directly to the well-being of this country, but allso that we had sufficient rescources to look after our selves in any eventuality for two years. We signed, on many occasions, documents which made it very clear that the host nation would not and does not intend to support us in any way whatsoever, no matter what the reason. Not before we had been here for two years. I can`t vote untill I have Oz citizenship, either. In short, I have no problem proving my loyalty to both sides in my own case.
Aye, Harry the immigrant

[harry hackedoff]

One Proud Pommy Bastard

[Ardennes44]

Right now, from their (meaning arabs/muslims in general) point of view, we are imposing our way of life upon them.

I agree. Islamic fundamentalists have a dee-seated disrespect for what they see as the undisciplined and immoral lifestyles of people in Western nations. They see America as ruthless, agressive, conceited, arrogant, and biased. In short, they see the US as the new Rome, a ruthless and godless empire, not as a Godly republic or a shining city on a hill.
Most Americans don`t care what Arabs think, but if we are going to war, in my opinion, we need to know the mind of those we expect to conquer and convert. If Islamic peoples detest America, why not let them discover democracy in their own time, rather than trying to convert them with missiles and bombs?

[Spannerman]

They see America as ruthless, agressive, conceited, arrogant, and biased. In short, they see the US as the new Rome, a ruthless and godless empire, not as a Godly republic or a shining city on a hill.
Most Americans don`t care what Arabs think, but if we are going to war, in my opinion, we need to know the mind of those we expect to conquer and convert. If Islamic peoples detest America, why not let them discover democracy in their own time, rather than trying to convert them with missiles and bombs?

'They see America as ruthless, agressive, conceited, arrogant, and biased. In short, they see the US as the new Rome, a ruthless and godless empire, not as a Godly republic or a shining city on a hill'.


That is how I see the aims of the American (USA) Administration but not representative of its people

'Most Americans don`t care what Arabs think, but if we are going to war, in my opinion, we need to know the mind of those we expect to conquer and convert'

Whose paraphrase is this? What on earth is this "conquer and convert" surely you mean liberate and educate! Strewth I'm beginning to think that the Elmer fraternity are not welcome on our bases in the UK anymore if that is the thinking of the USA and I'm sure it is not a consensus of opinion.........or is it?

[Ardennes44]

Conquer and convert, the Crusader message, is I`m afraid what I perceive to be the tone that the current administration has adopted. It is disguised under rhetorics such as this
"It`s important for us to spread freedom throughout the Middle East. Free societies are hopeful societies"
Evidence has suggested that the President`s religious impulses are intensely important to him. When certain spiritual views are held by an unstable and arrogant man who has his finger on the button, it tends to make people like myself rather nervous.

[Marina]

Hi Harry,

What I mean is… muslims ( I can’t speak for all) who were born and raised in the West do feel loyal to their adoptive countries and share western attributes but share a common faith with many countries. The 9/11 tragedy changed many things and with the bombings of Afghanistan and Iraq, questions were being asked ‘should they support the West against International terrorism or do they sympathise and give solidarity with Iraq and Afghanistan due to family links and a common faith. The moderates feel they are perceived as certain stereotypes because they support certain international political issues or are having to apologise because of a disruptive minority who claim to be of that faith. On the other side, they are perceived as renegades to their faith for supporting the West on political issues which may be seen as antagonistic to their faith.
It is not easy finding the right balance to live a secular lifestyle and keeping your faith without becoming too extreme to one or the other. I hope you get my drift here.
There seems to be confusion of interpreting religion with culture of a country. Muslims from different parts of the world interpret their faith in different ways, some women wear head scarves, some don’t. American muslims are very American in culture but may share a common faith with an Uzbeki muslim.

Yes, you made a fair comment on too many economic immigrants coming over but the British government should sort out their Immigration policy on this matter.

[snyder]

You name fascim and communism but capitalism is a way of life just like the former. Capitalism may work very well for us, but that does not mean it will work well in other parts of the world. Right now, from their (meaning arabs/muslims in general) point of view, we are imposing our way of life upon them.

Capitalism is fundamentally different from communism because it doesn't impose a system of thought. Even when capitalist societies are ruled by oppressive governments, those governments are dictatorships of prohibition, i.e., activities not forbidden are permitted, as opposed to totalitarian systems that require active political participation and indoctrination.

Fascism is more similar to capitalism because it essentially preserves private ownership and aligns government with management. But even there, it's usually a dictatorship of prohibition although in its extreme form (Nazi Germany) the line got pretty blurry as Hitler sought to replace religions with a state-run pagan cult.

[Seven]

You're right, my point was however, that we are imposing our system on other people. The Middle East in general does not know democracy and is not interested in it. Especially when it is brought by western countries that they despise.

[Tab]

Democarcy took hundreds of years to develop to it's present form in the west, it took many wars, both civil and international to shape what we have now become, also the way we look at our religion has also changed. Change has has not stopped as the system is still being fined tune as life and peoples life expectations continues to expand. Now how do you impose these ideas on a people who have no real idea of democarcy, whoes life are ruled by their Mullhas. These changes will take may years to happen,if at all.