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EU...in or out?

Interested or active in politics, discuss here.

EU. Stay in or get out?

a> Stay in
6
21%
b> Get out
22
79%
 
Total votes: 28

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may18
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#16 Post by may18 »

In i think, i am concerned that if we pull out entirely then
we would have trade restrictions as punishment.

But perhaps the swiss model of a genuine free trade area
with less integration is the way to go

Its quite comical really, the continental politicians talk
openly about integration, the huge step the constitution
is towards it etc.

And here blair calls it tidying up, you wouldnt guess they
were talking about the same thing

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dootybooty
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#17 Post by dootybooty »

Since the time of Elizabeth the First our Nation has been sending it's young men to die in Europe so that no one nation would hold sway over the others. We have fought almost every nation in Europe at some time or another to protect our soverignty and way of life. Sincethe 1580's we have had no teritorial ambitioin mainland Europe, unlike most of the other nations.

In the historical perspective I beleive it is a betrayal of the blood spilt by our ancestors that our so called leaders are prepared to give away our rights.

It is my belief that we are an island that is not part of Europe. I personaly will never be a European as long as my arse points downwards. I am PROUD to be British. Proud that this nation stood alone against a great tyrany that the rest of Europe rolled over to. If people want to look for examples of European Unity(ho ho ho) they need to look no further than France, where during the Second World War more Frenchmen served in the German army than in the French resistance.
Keep the faith.

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Seven
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#18 Post by Seven »

If people want to look for examples of European Unity(ho ho ho) they need to look no further than France, where during the Second World War more Frenchmen served in the German army than in the French resistance
This is actually true for most if not all countries occupied by Nazi Germany, but has absolutely nothing to do with European integration. Your remarks about "the history of Europe" and the British role in it confirm the view most Europeans (of which Britain is a part wether you like it or not) have of Britain. You're old fashioned and can only talk about yourself as though you are still the world power you were 50 years ago. Wake up, the Empire is gone and you are going to have to go with the times or you will fall even further than you already have.
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.”
Mark Twain

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#19 Post by dootybooty »

Well Sven there we have it. A typical example of European integration. Thank you for telling me I am a European wether I like it or not. That it what a lot of us don't like about the E.U. Its un democratic and it tries to force us to accept rules that we have have never been consulted on. AND FOR YOUR INFORMATION I AM NOT EUROPEAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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#20 Post by dootybooty »

P.S.
I dont want to get into a pissing contest with you Seven, I visit the Netherlands frequently stay with Dutch Friends, sail with them and enjoy the Dutch way of life. What I and a lot of my compatriots do not like is the way we have been dragooned into what is becomming a Super state without being consulted.
We have a tradition of speaking our minds in the UK and are entitled to say what we feel. This does not preclude reasoned argument, however when I make a statement of historical fact I do not expect to be castigated for it.
Could I just ask you, out of genuine interest, do you consider yourself Dutch first or European first? Do you feel comfortable living under a strange flag, with a European anthem and being ruled by peop[le you dont know and had no say in their appointment.
If so thats fine for you, I have no desire to tell you how to live your life and what your beliefs should be. Kindly extend my countrymen and myself the same respect.
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Seven
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#21 Post by Seven »

What I meant is you're geographically part of Europe and you are in the EU, doesn't get more European than that. I don't like the EU anymore than you do. But don't act like you're some island far away that has absolutely nothing to do with the mainland, the Dover strait is so narrow you could piss over it and reach France! We as Europe do not have a choice but cooperate more (without losing our souvereignty, I'm not for a European federation) or we will lose the economic battle with the US and Asia in the long run.
Could I just ask you, out of genuine interest, do you consider yourself Dutch first or European first? Do you feel comfortable living under a strange flag, with a European anthem and being ruled by peop[le you dont know and had no say in their appointment.
As I probably made clear in the above, I consider myself Dutch first and foremost. Like I said, I do not believe in a European federation but leaving the EU will do us ( and, in my opinion, Britain as well) more harm than good.
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.”
Mark Twain

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#22 Post by dootybooty »

Well we seem to agree that niether of us want a superstate. difference is you seem to trust your politicians to keep you out of one, I dont trust ours.We have been consistently lied to by our politicians about what Europe is all about. When we voted on joining the EEC as it was then we were told it was purely for trade. I voted in favour in that referendum, it was back in the early 70's. Since then we as an electorate have been given no opportunity to voice our opinions as to the direction that Europe was heading in.
Now people are taking notice of how far we have been dragged down the federalist route and are voicing their concerns. Untill the politicians are honest about their ultimate aims there will be growing discontent. The down side is that the discontent is manifesting all across Europe in the rise of extreme right parties. Europe has been down that route before and we all know what happened as a result.
Oh, and why is nessessary to form a power block against the USA and Asia?
Keep the faith.

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#23 Post by mutter nutter »

dootybooty wrote:Well we seem to agree that niether of us want a superstate. difference is you seem to trust your politicians to keep you out of one, I dont trust ours.We have been consistently lied to by our politicians about what Europe is all about. When we voted on joining the EEC as it was then we were told it was purely for trade. I voted in favour in that referendum, it was back in the early 70's. Since then we as an electorate have been given no opportunity to voice our opinions as to the direction that Europe was heading in.
Now people are taking notice of how far we have been dragged down the federalist route and are voicing their concerns. Untill the politicians are honest about their ultimate aims there will be growing discontent. The down side is that the discontent is manifesting all across Europe in the rise of extreme right parties. Europe has been down that route before and we all know what happened as a result.
Oh, and why is nessessary to form a power block against the USA and Asia?
Well you can ask your self this, in 50 year's which countries will be the largest economies with the largest population base, India, approx 1.5 billion people, the PRC approx 1.3 billion people, the US 400 million + add to that developing nation Brazil 200 million +, do you honestly think that nation's as vast as those will listen to small little European Countries sqauking up over trade, energy resources etc, no we dominated them for what almost 500 year's, something they have not forgotten, do you really think they won't use their vast weight to push their own agenda's on the World stage and if Europe stay's as devided as we are there is notting we can do about it
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Seven
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#24 Post by Seven »

Untill the politicians are honest about their ultimate aims there will be growing discontent
The politicians are only there because we voted for them. If we do not like what they do than they will lose the next election. Things like the losing souvereignty to a European federation (which I think is a long way off) will probably be decided by referendum in each of the member countries. If not we can still vote for parties which do not support that Superstate. If the majority of the people do not support a federal Europe, the major parties will follow that because they know extreme right is a danger.
In my country, 2 years ago a party was established which although very conservative, was not quite extreme right. This party was extremely popular at the time because it finally brought to attention the mass migration into this country, and made it a subject people could talk about without immediately being labeled racist. Other parties have since followed that "hard-line". That's politics, in this country anyway, political parties want votes.

As for the political block against the US and Asia, for our economies to prosper, we need to be competitive with especially Asia. I believe we can do that better together than alone. The Airbus company is a prime example, for the first time selling more aircraft this year than Boeing. Without help from the EU that would have been impossible.
I also believe it to be important to be heard internationally. As individual countries we have very little say in international politics. As Europe we might make a difference, for example in the Iraq situation.
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.”
Mark Twain

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#25 Post by dootybooty »

So we have to have a bigger gang to fend off the poorer nations do we? Where does that leave the European ideal of equality? By the way, India already has a massive population and I dont see that impacting to much on our economy, apart from some call centres being placed there. Why talk of conflict with the emerging world? Unless the EU wants to take over the whole world, do you know something we dont?
By the way I dont read elveish so I couldn't understand your quote. Erin ro bragh.
Keep the faith.

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#26 Post by dootybooty »

Seven agree with you in principle. In the past in the UK there has been no party to vote for that was not in favour of the E.U. Now there is and we are seeing the results.
Personaly I was not happy about the war, but Europe as a political entity did not prevent it happening, it is unlikely to make any significant impact on the only super power left in the world while there is a republican president. If Europe does not increase it,s defence budget substantialy it never will. Europe is now facing up to the fact that it relied on an American shield in the days of the cold war, to be a major player it must be able to back up its words with force, but it is no prepared to spend the money to do that.
Bloody hell I just put forward an argument for a European army. Strike that from the record.
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davo141
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#27 Post by davo141 »

if Europe stay's as devided as we are there is notting we can do about it
Europe, having its civil wars realtivley early in its modern history and with the larger economys and what not will always, have a major part to play in world affairs. The likes of China, have always been a major player in world affairs, through there involvement in Vietnam and so forth...

Countrys such as Brazil will need more than 50 years to become a major player, riddled with $billions woth of debt, poverty sticken and lacking in basic features in many areas such as swerage and what not will need to get its domestic self sorted before assurting its self internationally.

I agree with dootybooty, having an aunty who is on the local council and ex-mayor, i know how currupt policts is! the amount of jollys and so forth she gets free of companys shes meant to be standing against its unreal!

For aslong as ive been following politics its been a lying mans game! with spin and depections at every sentence!

if only we had stayed like the Swiss!independent yet, arguably enjoying the same benifits!

I agree with dooty, British then European!
I would be English but seen as it isnt poltically correct

and to a few previous points, i believe that England as a nation, when with the empire, could of invaded main land Europe, we defeated the French and Neopleon, we could of carried on our advance further, could have occupied Europe after WWI + WW2 as well as neumerous othertimes in the past! We took our lesson from history and built an empire both benifically and realtivley safe, and with the 5th largest economy in the world i think its 5th? will be a major influence on international issues, with other countries needing our imports and exports for there own benifits!

Cheers, davo
Forward Troop - CLRRM, Viking Operator and Maintainer. Viking Support Troop out in The Ghan.

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#28 Post by dootybooty »

Davo, I did not say British and then European. I AM NOT A EUROPEAN. Good luck at Lympstone. Remeber its mind over matter.
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#29 Post by davo141 »

i meant more on an international scale, but i agree, Who would want to be European anyways! they eat frogs legs for fun and sleep when its gets too hot! silly beggers!

i agree, i would never be European, i know which way i would vote if we had a referrendum!! sod this B.Liar

Thanks for the good luck! its only 32 weeks of my life after all..how hard can it be :( :( :o :o

Bloody hard and hardeR

cheers, davo
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Seven
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#30 Post by Seven »

Maybe India and the PRC are not much of a factor economically and politically NOW, but they definitely will be in the future. We should make sure we are prepared for that, not react when it's too late, our economies will falter and we slide down into Third World standards ourselves.
and to a few previous points, i believe that England as a nation, when with the empire, could of invaded main land Europe, we defeated the French and Neopleon, we could of carried on our advance further, could have occupied Europe after WWI + WW2 as well as neumerous othertimes in the past!
The same goes the other way around. If Holland invaded you full scale in the 17th century we might have won. It's a pointless argument really, almost every nation led the world at one time or another and could or could not have occupied other countries. That's not the point, you are no longer the Empire you once were, and neither is Holland. We've both lost most of our rich overseas areas and are therefore dependend on trade to get our recources, instead of just taking them. Times change and if we don't look forward (and learn from history) we will lose the everlasting battle for economic and political survival.
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.”
Mark Twain

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