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U.S. Democratic Canidate?

Interested or active in politics, discuss here.
Frank S.

#31 Post by Frank S. »

I should point out that this is not a new 'phenomenon' and that previous administrations indulged in cronyism and other extra-legal activities.
Although extra-legal is in fact different from illegal, these are activities and policies which can be termed as unethical to varying degrees.

My sense is that we've not seen so much of it until now, but then we now have numerous internet-based news sources as well as blogspots and other informative (open) sources, so there is much more exposure.

Officially, of course, America is defined as a democracy. But the evidence is growing that special interests trump political representation, something established by simple common sense long ago. So the 'unofficial' consensus is I think that what we have is a plutocracy (government by a wealthy class, for the wealthy), implied in nicknames given to presidents ('Slick Willy' Clinton and 'emperor' Bush).

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#32 Post by Wholley »

I'll try to explain a little further.
As the Founders saw it we are a Federation of States.Each State being self governing.This of course was ended by Lincoln in the war of northen aggresion.He was the first truly big government democrat although at the time he was considered a republican.The North and South have since flip-flopped,so now most Southerners vote republican but they were mostly democrat at the end of the war against the King.
Confused yet?
I'll talk about the Electoral College after Frank gets another post in.
Frank?When have we ever been a democracy?

Frank S.

#33 Post by Frank S. »

I must plead ignorance on the question of when was America a democracy...

Really I just don't know if it ever was...

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#34 Post by Marina »

This is a very informative thread.

....Yes please do explain this 'Electoral College System.
How many states does a future president need to win in a national election ?
Also, which are the key important states, (the only ones I know are California and Texas) ?


#35 Post by Wholley »

Hello Marina,
Can you not sleep?
Good to read your voice again.
Try this.
Whats the weather doing over there?
Brass monkeys here.27f which I believe is -5c.
Best regards.

Frank S.

#36 Post by Frank S. »

Here's a tidbit on cronyism. I highlighted the relevant parts. ... lc=1119311

Bush brother's divorce produces some startling disclosures

By PAM EASTON (Associated Press Writer)
The Associated Press

Web Posted : 01/26/2004 1:10 PM

In the annals of embarrassing presidential relatives, Neil Bush is no Billy Carter or Roger Clinton.

But his messy divorce has produced some eye-opening disclosures. Among them: He had sex with women who showed up uninvited at his hotel rooms in Asia; he had an affair and may have fathered a child out of wedlock; and he stands to make millions from businesses in which he has little expertise _ including a computer-chip company managed in part by the son of former Chinese president Jiang Zemin.It seems certain opportunities tend to present themselves when your name is Neil Bush.

For his part, Bush defended the fees he has received for consulting jobs. But he gave little insight into whether the women who offered him sex in Hong Kong and Taiwan were perhaps paid by mysterious benefactors.

In a deposition taken last March and reviewed by The Associated Press, Bush told the attorney for his wife of 23 years, Sharon, that the women did not ask him for money and he did not pay them anything.

Asked how he knew what to do when he opened his door and saw a woman standing there, the 48-year-old Bush replied: "Whatever happened, happened."

"It's a pretty remarkable thing for a man just to go to a hotel room door and open it and have a woman standing there and have sex with her," said the attorney, Marshall Davis Brown.

"It was very unusual," Bush replied.

Sharon Bush also accused Neil of fathering a child with the woman he now plans to marry. The woman's ex-husband has filed a defamation lawsuit, and DNA testing has been requested.

The titillating details have made barely a splash in Texas, where loyalty to the president runs deep. University of Texas government professor Bruce Buchanan said he doubts Neil Bush's shenanigans will become political fodder in the 2004 election.

"There are lots of examples of presidents with troubled siblings and it never seemed to have that much of an impact," he said.

Jimmy Carter's beer-swilling brother, Billy, wrote a book called "Redneck Power" and accepted money from the government of Libya. Bill Clinton's half-brother, Roger, was jailed for a year for dealing cocaine. Richard Nixon's kid brother Donald took $205,000 from Howard Hughes in the hopes of opening a fast-food chain selling Nixonburgers.

It is not the first time Neil Bush has caused his family some trouble. At the end of his father's presidency, Neil was among a group of defendants who agreed to pay $49.5 million to settle a negligence lawsuit over the $1 billion collapse of the savings and loan he directed in Colorado.
Bush denied wrongdoing and was not charged in the grand jury investigation, but the U.S. Office of Thrift Supervision found Bush's conduct "involved significant conflicts of interest and constituted multiple breaches" of his fiduciary duties.

Bush has gone on to reap profits from other ventures. In the deposition, he said he hoped to receive an estimated $2 million for acting as a consultant to Grace Semiconductor Manufacturing Corp., co-founded by Jiang Zemin's eldest son.

"Now, you have absolutely no educational background in semiconductors, do you Mr. Bush?" Brown asked.

"That's correct," said Bush, who holds an MBA from Tulane University.

Bush recently told the AP he has "not received one penny of compensation" from Grace Semiconductor because he never did the consulting. He did not respond to a request for comment on his divorce proceedings.

Bush has focused most of his energy on Ignite Inc., an Austin-based educational software startup. So far, he has raised $23 million from investors, including Winston Wong, the other founder of Grace Semiconductor.

"Let's face the reality," Bush told the AP in 2002. "I probably have access to people who probably wouldn't meet with a development-stage company, but I feel I'm held to a higher standard."

Bush's tax returns, obtained by the AP, showed $357,000 in income from Ignite and at least $798,218 from three transactions involving the stock of Kopin Corp., a small U.S. high-tech company where he had previously been a consultant.

There is no evidence he has tried to enlist help from the president for any of his ventures. Bush spokesman Taylor Gross said the White House had no comment.

Still, said Rice University political science professor Bob Stein, "there is a family pattern here where the Bush sons _ Jeb, Neil and George _ have benefited tremendously by their connections through their father."

Currying favor with a relative of the president can "start to smell bad," said Steven Weiss, communications director for the Center for Responsive Politics, a nonpartisan group that tracks money in politics.

Rex John, who has known Neil Bush since his Denver days, said he has never known Neil Bush to use his family connections to obtain business opportunities.

"I'm sure it has opened many doors for him, but it wasn't Neil out there trying to get them open," John said. "Neil would never do anything like that. That's not his style."

After Neil Bush severed his 23-year marriage to Sharon in May, he proposed last month in France to Maria Andrews, a former volunteer for former first lady Barbara Bush.

Sharon Bush's lawyer in the defamation case, David Berg, allowed the AP to review the deposition but said he did not have a copy of Sharon Bush's testimony. He would not make her available for an interview.

Sharon Bush, 51, alleged her ex-husband could have fathered Andrews' 3-year-old son. That prompted Andrews' former husband to file a defamation lawsuit against Sharon Bush. Neil Bush submitted a tissue sample for analysis.

In the meantime, he has been ordered to pay $1,500 a month in child support for two of his children, Pierce, 17 and Ashley, 14. The couple's oldest child, Lauren, is 19.

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#37 Post by Marina »

Hi Wholley (and everyone here)

I am not feeling very well tonight, I have a wretched cold coming. :(

The weather in London is -2 Centigrade, bitterly cold winds, icy with sleet and snow coming but the wind chill will make it feel like -15 degrees centigrade. (Sorry to sound like the weather presenter ).
I just saw the weather report for the Canada and Northern USA, its pretty bad on your side tonight too.

The origins of the Electoral College link was very educational... thanks Wholley.
About these Political US family scandals. I have noticed, most of the presidents seem to be unaffected politically when their siblings behave badly these days.
Also, do you think 'the Bush clan' is more powerful and influencial than the Kennedys nowadays. Its seems like it to me


#38 Post by Wholley »

Hi Marina.
Just as an update,Kerry won New Hampshire,so Dean may as well drop out now.He has no chance in the South.Edwards and Clark may do well down here,but I doubt they can beat Bush.So I reckon John Kerry will get the Democratic nomination.Whoop-dee-do,another elitist,but he won't beat the Bush elite this time around.
Well at least he has plenty of his wife's money to spend next time.
We are looking forward to wind chills of -40f tonight.
So, horses up,dogs under the porch.
Hope you get well soon,
I HATE winter,

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#39 Post by Whitey »

You said it Wholley, Bush will win big. John is a one legged egalitarian and Bush is a new age carpet bagger. I ain't voting! Bush done give them Mexicans free range here while hastling the legal immigrants. Kerry is just another Democrat looking to get elected by promising the mob to loot the coffers for them in exchange.

Marina I hate the Electoral College. It goes against the wishes of the governed. As far as the parties I hate republicans because of their roots, the Dixiecrats have become the Commie Crats and the 14th ammendment basically screwed 3rd parties.

If Bush is re-elected we'll be in Demascus come spring 2005. No WMD, I told ya'll this war was for Israel.

You'd think the UK would tell Bush that Empire isn't the way to go in the long run, must be British humor. I figure it sucks when it happens to you, but is funny as hell when you see someone else get screwed.
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)


#40 Post by Wholley »

Hello Marina.
Yes. I agree with your assement.
The Kennedy family still has power,but really only in the north,and maybe a little in California(Maria Shriver,wife of the Governator is a Kennedy).
The Bush crowd has immense power in the south.
Jeb is a better orator than George,although he has improved greatly.
I disagree with Whitey on the Electoral College subject,
It's vital to the less populus States,it guards them against bullying from the big four.CA.NY.FL.DC.(Iknow,DC isn't a state before the gang starts).
Which was the Founders intent.
Hope your feeling better.

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#41 Post by Marina »

Hi Wholley,

At the moment, I feel like a miserable old cow with a sore and runny nose, watery eyes and temperature. :( I have been drinking alot green tea and big doses of vitamin C, I’ll be ok in a day or two, thanks for your kind words.
I find US politics quite confusing (electing governors of each state, then Congress people and then Senators).
This John Kerry chap, I don’t know much about him, but is he the one who has been endorsed by Edward Kennedy ?
One more thing, about some of the ethnic minority voters in the USA, which party do they tend to support , eg Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Indians, Pakistanis, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Arab community etc ? I know the Black community are usually Democrat voters.
Just curious to know as most ethnic minorities tend to vote Labour and a few vote Liberal Democrats but a few of the Business lot vote Conservative over here.


I don’t believe Bush would initiate an invasion of Syria as he did with Iraq. On what grounds ?(or am I being naïve here ?)
I know Syria is not a democratic country (and Hafiz Al-Assad was just as ruthless in his day as Saddam was) but Syria seems to have good relations with most countries including the UK and is trying to be more open towards the outside. USA will be even more politically and internationally isolated, even though USA has got away with it in Iraq but surely not a second time. I hope you know what I mean here (sorry, it s the cold !).

I better go as I feel like dying in bed ! :(
Bye for now !

Frank S.

#42 Post by Frank S. »

Marina wrote:I don’t believe Bush would initiate an invasion of Syria as he did with Iraq. On what grounds ?
Probably looking for those missing WMDs and/or terrorists infiltrating into Iraq....
But I wouldn't expect it to happen full-bore until after the election. There are border skirmishes and US special forces going into Syria, but nothing huge yet.


#43 Post by Wholley »

Hello Marina.
Yes your correct about Ted Kennedy endorsing Kerry,
they are both liberal Senator's from the same state.
Frank might be a better source for minority voting trends as we really don't have that many in western North Carolina.This area is largely a retirement community but having said that,the few Mexicans I know are mostly republican voters.They are all middle-aged or retired.So,I can't really give an opinion on younger immigrants.
Well,off to feed the animals,I'll talk to you about Gubernatorial,Congressional and Senate elections when your feeling better.You know most Americans find British politic's totally confusing.
Chin up,

Frank S.

#44 Post by Frank S. »

As to minorities, the widely accepted assumption is that they tend to cast democratic votes, but this assumption's been proven false time and again.
I don't think it can be predicted accurately.
When thinking of minority groups, some important ethnic and economic divisions affect their political leanings.
For instance, Asian immigrants are Chinese (and China's a big country, comprising very different people), Vietnamese, Thais, Cambodians, Philipinos, Samoans, etc.
The same could be said for South-Americans, be they from Mexico, Guatemala, Brazil, etc.
Can there be a unifying thread among those groups?
I don't know.

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#45 Post by Whitey »

The US government has become a network of coercion. The election will be rigged, dem, rep doesn't matter, that is rigging in itself. No candidate will win my consent.
Jeff Davis was the last truly elected president in my country.
Let them call me a rebel and I welcome it, I feel no concern from it; but I should suffer the misery of demons were I to make a whore of my soul. (Thomas Paine)

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