Deally Plaza

[Grungey]

Hell boy, don`t y`all know it was that fat faggot, Elvis Presley

[Whitey]

Grungy,
I bet you are right, Elvis was our only King and maybe Kennedy and the Camalot stuff made him jealous. Wasn't old Jackaline or how ever you spell old JFK's wifes name a dish for back then? She was too good for old JFK. JFK was just a turd bag Yankee bent on the Civil Rights(Socialist Revolution). I could careless what Yankee's do to each other, they bess just not come aroun' hea messin wid us Rebels!

[Grungey]

Thank you Jesus oh yea thank youFinaly I say finaly I got me a kindred spirit. Yankee fuggin faggots, who needs`em. Jacqueline Bouvier come from a decent Southern famileh, there boy, she wus ruined by that Yankee sombitch.Hell White Boy, I sees y`all was a Coreman there boy, whas your poison. Sol or Corona, theys ice cold. Plus ole Jim Beam, and Jack No 7, live here
Sep

[Wholley]

Panorama?
The BBC?You believe them?
Heaven help you.
Three rounds in 8.3 seconds is easy with a bolt action rifle.
Accuracy is another matter.
The FACT that Kennedy was hit in the throat is undeniable.
Cover-up is also undeniable.
Now what was the,oh there's someone at the door,claims to be Grungey of the Yard.
Didn't believe him,so told him to Fark Off.
Wholley.

[harry hackedoff]

The thing about bolt-action rifles has been covered before, and I said that the max rate of well-aimed shots for a rifleman was the same as a longbow-man at Agincourt. i.e. 20 rounds per minute. That works out at three seconds to cycle(as in, "the cyclic rate") The four actions needed after firing, are easy to achieve in three seconds, (eject spent cartridge, chamber fresh round, re-acquire, fire) and can be carried out with a high degree of accuracy if firing to your front with a limited arc of fire. Oswald would have had to make the first shot almost vertically downwards, on a vehicle moving at twenty-five mph through a left hand turn. As it accelerated away to his right, he would have to have made the other two shots and all within 8.3 seconds. The Manlicher-Carcano was known not to be an accurate weapon and I firmly believe Oswald was the fall guy. High scores in personal weapons tests on a range in ideal conditions do not mean he was capable of getting away three shots in that time at that target, with any degree of success.
Ref Oswald’s facial expression of being "in the know", whitey, have you ever read The Manchurian Candidate? Or a similar story about Sirhan Sirhan, the guy who was charged with shooting Bobby? Political assassinations with hypnotised fall guys feature in both storys, but Manchurian Candidate was written in the mid-fifties
Aye, Harry

[Whitey]

Never read those books, but his eyes and body language said it all, he had something big to say, and it wasn't an admission of guilt.
Kennedy was pissing off bankers, he wanted an honest economy. I figure the Kikes got him, they'll probably get me too for saying so.

[harry hackedoff]

Do what I did mate, and use Google. There`s loads of stuff about the Manchurian Candidate(top film, even today ) and Sirhan Sirhan. Whilst looking that stuff up I noticed a book I`d read years ago, about the CIA and mind control in a project called MK Ultra.
Here`s a couple of links
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/TheManc ... e-1013227/
for man-can

www.webcom.com/ctka/pr398-rfk.html
for Sirhan
As I said, there`s shit loads on Google
What I`d like to see ref JFK, is the transcripts of Oswald`s interrogation. Why have no police witnesses to the interrogation ever come forward with even a hint of what he said? Is any of that stuff going to be de-classed under the FOIA real soon? I doubt it
Do yerself a flavour there Don, get your arse down to Blockbuster Video and get a copy of the Manchurian, it`s definately one of the hidden stars of Hollywood`s firmament.( you talk some bollocks sometimes Harry ) Er, yes, I know, still a top fillum though

[harry hackedoff]

Further to my last, here`s a couple on MK Ultra
www.michael-robinett.com/declass/c000.htm
All the pages are clickable but read pages 52 and 53, they have particular relevance to our little chat

www.mindspring.com/~txporter/scidig.htm

If this is the declass shit, what are they holding back?

[Whitey]

Harry,
I think they did some of that stuff to me. When I hear loud noises I get pissed off, and I don't know why? If I hear gun shots I get pissed and feel an urge to run towards them and silence them. And I got a thing for Bart Simpsons mom Marge? They had to have done something to me!

[harry hackedoff]

I got a thing for Bart Simpsons mom Marge

And your point is?
Ref Agincourt Whitey, an English Army of about five thousand, mainly archers using longbow, faced a French Army of at least twenty-five thousand in the pissing down rain. They were cold and they were wet, but they were determined. A lesser Army would have fled, given the disparity in sizes, but the English gave a balls-out performance. The French had more cavalry and fewer archers. Their archers were equipped with crossbows, lethal at short range but slow to reload.
The Armies drew up and faced each other, Kermit must’ve thought" piece of piss". As their cavalry began to charge the English line, a flight of arrows darkened the sky. For the boys stood there, with their arrows stuck in the ground in front of them, ready to use, it was shit or bust. Most of the French Knights were mown down as that volley struck home. It was followed by another and another, till there was a continuous stream of arrows from the Longbows into the French. After the day was won, the French dead lay six foot deep in places.
The result was one of England’s finest victories.
How long ago did this happen? Bit of a clue, it was old when Shakespeare wrote of it

This day is called the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.


This from Google,



It rained for most of the night turning the ground sodden with ankle deep mud in some places.

Both armies rose before dawn and assembled for battle, the English numbering 5000 archers and 900 men-at-arms and the French between 20-30,000. The rules of chivalry dictate that the field of battle should favor neither side but the French freely took up a position that was disadvantageous to them. They assembled perhaps 1000 yards apart, separated by a recently ploughed field. A slight dip between them ensured that the armies were in full view of each other. Either side of the field was bordered by forest that narrowed from 1200 yards where the French assembled to only 900 where the armies could be expected to meet. This greatly restricted the free movement that the French would require to exploit their far greater numbers, preventing them from outflanking and enveloping the smaller force.


The English formed into a single line, with no reserves, into three groups of men-at-arms, comprising the advance, mainbody and rearguard, each around four deep. The right was commanded by the Duke of York, the center by Henry and the left by Lord Camoys. There is some debate as to the formation of archers. The traditional view is that each the three groups of men-at-arms were separated by a large wedge of archers with a body of archers on each flank. This would allow the archers to fire on the French not only from the front but also the flank. More recent research suggests that this would have considerably weakened the line. If heavily armed men-at-arms were to come in contact with a body of lightly armed archers, they could be expected to quickly disperse them breaking the line. As such, the archers would have been positioned on the flanks, in accordance with usual English practice, 2,500 to a side, angled forward to allow converging fire on any attack to the lines center.1. This formation was to have important consequences later in the battle.

It is possible that a small formation of archers may have been positioned in the Tramcourt woods to the rear of the French lines. Its role would be to cause confusion in the French ranks and divert troops from the main battle. As the French advanced to make contact with the main English body, they would also have been in a position to provide flanking fire. The existance of such a force has been vigorously denied by English chroniclers.


The French formed three lines, the first two made up of dismounted men-at-arms and the third mounted. Cavalry was placed on each flank, 1600 commanded by the Count of Vendome on the left and 800 commanded by Clignet de Brebant on the right. On the flanks to the rear, some ineffectual cannon were placed that never fired more than a few shots during the battle. Between the first and second lines were placed the archers and crossbowmen. The reality of the French lines, however, was far different. Every French nobleman wanted to be in the first line and to have his banner prominently displayed. This resulted in much jostling for position, crowding out the archers and crossbowmen to the flanks so that the first two lines became more or less one large chaotic mass. "The strength of the armies of Philip and John of Valais was composed of a fiery and undisciplined aristocracy that imagined itself to be the most efficient military force in the world, but was in reality little removed from an armed mob"2.


The two sides thus assembled, waited unmoving for four hours from about 7am to about 11am. The wise counsel of d'Albret and Boucicaut prevailed, at least temporarily, arguing that they should let the English attack where their inferior numbers would have placed them at a greater disadvantage. In fact, it was argued that they should not attack at all and let the English starve. In such a way, the English would be defeated without having to give battle. The French, still confident of victory, used this time to jostle for position, eat, settle quarrels and throw insults at the English. While many sat, some remained standing as not to muddy their armor. One thousand yards away, Henry knew that they would have to fight that day as his troops, without food, would only get weaker. On council from his advisors, he ordered the English advance





The English quietly and steadily advanced on the French position to within extreme longbow range (approx. 250 yards). To advance in good order, this would have taken up to ten minutes. If the French had attacked during this period, it would have been disatrous for the English. Having gained information that the French intended to attack his archers with massed cavalry, Henry had ordered each archer to carve an eight foot long stake, pointed at each end. Upon reaching their position, the archers drove their stakes into the ground at such an angle as to impale a horse as it charged. These stakes would have been planted in a thicket in the archers positions; dangerous for a mounted rider to enter but offering enough space for a lightly armed archer to freely move. Within this thicket, the archers would have stood in a loose belt with their flanks resting against the woods.

At the order, the archers let loose the first arrow strike. The "air was darkened by an intolerable number of piercing arrows flying across the sky to pour upon the enemy like a cloud laden with rain." While this may not have caused too much damage, having been fired from extreme range, it must have produced a deafening thunderclap of noise as it hit the French lines. As an English archer could loose up to ten flights a minute, by the time the first landed another would have been in the air. In the confusion of what had just happened, amidst the noise of outraged Frenchmen, injured animals and soldiers, the French cavalry on the flanks charged forth, followed by the first line of dismounted men-at-arms.



If it is to retain any sort of order, a cavalry charge can move at only 12-15 miles an hour. It would have taken about 40 seconds to cover the distance to the English lines; enough time for three to four further volleys of arrows. During the morning wait, lax command had allowed many of the cavalry on the flanks to wander off out of position. Caught by surprise by the English assault, the charge was severely undermanned. Moreover, due to the woods on either side of the field, they were unable to outflank the archers necessitating a frontal assault. The few who did reach the lines of archers, perhaps not seeing the stakes in between the mass of archers, crashed straight into the thicket of spikes and were unable to breach the lines. As the survivors retreated in disarray, they were followed by further volleys of arrows. Horses crazed and uncontrollable by injury and fright, with no space to manouver, crashed directly into the advancing men-at-arms breaking their orderly advance.



To march the distance to the English lines would have taken three to four minutes giving some breathing space for the English. This was done over muddy ground further broken up by the mad cavalry charge. As the distance closed, the English archers were able to fire at right angles to their targets. Their arrows were fixed with the "Bodkin point", specially designed to penetrate armor. As the French advanced, they formed into three columns to attack the English men-at-arms. This was partially forced, partially planned. The French men-at-arms saw archers as inferior in social standing and, therefore, not worthy opponents whereas there was ransom to be gained by capturing an English noble. Furthermore, as the French advanced on the English position, the field narrowed by 150 yards compacting the French line. This was compounded by those on the flanks shying away from the hail of arrows pressing further inward. By the time they arrived at the English line, the French did not have enough room to fight freely.


Using lances cut down for fighting on foot, the attacking line would have rushed the last few meters to maximize the shock of impact to knock over the defenders, open gaps in the line, isolate individuals and push back the line in disorder. The English may have stepped back at the last moment to wrongfoot the French spearmen or if they had possessed greater numbers, they may have been able to rush forward themselves to steal the momentum. The French line attacked largely unsupported, in disorder and close to exhaustion from their trudge over broken ground. The French artillery, reduced to a position of impotence by a lack of a clear field of fire, and the archers and crossbowmen, outclassed by the faster, longer and more accurate rate of fire of the longbow, had been pushed out of position by the men-at-arms. When the French reached the English line, it had very little momentum left.

Still, as the two forces clashed, the English line buckled but soon rallied, neither side was willing to give way. The English not willing to leave their secure place for the open battlefield which would mean almost certain annihilation, and the French certain of victory and the force of numbers pushing from behind. With the press of numbers, the French were unable to attack or defend effectively meaning that the English would win in a one on one contest. As the attackers fell, they presented obstacles to those following. As the English pressed forth, cutting through the French attackers, a tumbling effect would have developed where the French were pushed forward from behind but also back by the English. As the shaken French line spilled out towards the archers, the archers downed their bows and grabbed their swords, axes and other weapons, including those dropped by the French, and fell on the flank. The heavily armed men-at-arms would not have been overwhelmed by this onslaught; it is much more likely that the archers in groups of two or three would have singled out those men-at-arms shaken by the initial charge. As one or two attacked the French man-at-arms, the third would maneuver behind to slash at unprotected parts such as behind the knee. Once down, the exhausted knight could be quickly dispatched with a blade through a joint in the armor or through the grills of the faceplate. This would have gradually repeated the tumbling effect on the flanks, lengthening the killing zone and enveloping the French. Many slightly injured, or knocked down were unable to rise through exhaustion, weight of their armor in the mud and were trampled underfoot by the press behind them.

The first French line was almost totally destroyed, either killed or taken prisoner. As the second line arrived on the scene, many quit the battlefield upon seeing the result of the first attack. Those who attacked met largely the same fate. The Duke of Barabant, arriving late to the battle due to a christening party the previous night led a brief charge which was quickly broken up and for which he lost his life.

Contemporary observers describe the piles of French bodies as "as high as a man", an exaggeration, but befitting what had happened. Within half an hour, the first two French lines were annihilated. Henry was careful not to let individuals sequester prisoners as the third French line remained on the field as a very real threat.



As prisoners were moved to the rear, in greater numbers than the whole English army, simultaneous reports came to Henry's attention. A mob of peasants with three knights under the command of the Lord of Agincourt attacked the baggage train to the rear. As the English could afford no more than a token guard, they were quickly overwhelmed and the attackers made off with their plunder, including one of Henry's crowns. This may, in fact, have been a poorly timed flanking attack, based on the French plan to cause disruption to the rear of the English position. As this occurred, the Counts of Marle and Fauquemberghes rallied 600 men-at-arms for a counter attack which ended as disastrously as the others. In response, to the ensuing panic, Henry ordered the killing of the prisoners. The English men-at-arms refused, probably not so much on moral grounds (killing an equal after their surrender was dishonorable) as financial. They stood to lose the ransom from the prisoners. As a result, 200 archers were given the job as they were tough, professional soldiers outside the bounds of chivalry.

There are many possible reasons for this order. It may simply have been revenge for the attack on the baggage train. It has also been suggested that it may have been used as a terror weapon to control the prisoners. As between one and two thousand prisoners were returned to England, those on the field would have greatly outnumbered the archers, at least 10-1 so it may have been an effective, even if brutal method of moving them quickly to the rear and knocking the last bit of fight out of them. More importantly, there were more prisoners than the English, all still in armor on a battlefield littered with weapons. With the third French line threatening to attack, Henry would have been worried about this threat from the rear. How many were killed is unknown but contemporary observers say it was more than were killed in battle. Modern scholars have roundly condemned Henry for this action but it is interesting to note that no observers of the day, even the French, have done so. In fact many argued it was justified and even went so far as to criticize the third French line for acting in a was as to force it. From the viewpoint of a 15th century knight, it was seen as necessary, the French also having done similar previously. The attack never materialized, and the killing of prisoners stopped as the threat evaporated. With the two first lines destroyed and the third slinking away, the battle of Agincourt was won.

The date, Don, was 25 October, 1415, 77 years before Columbus sailed the ocean blue, 588 years ago.
This is the English. This is our History. Nobody likes us and we don`t give a shit.
Cry God for England, Harry and Saint George, indeed

[Sisyphus]

Just shows what happens when an army of 'officers' takes on an army of 'other ranks'!

[Frank S.]

LOL!!! That was exactly what I was thinking!