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Bench/Chest Press

General discussions on joining & training in the Royal Marines.
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Spence
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#31 Post by Spence » Tue 15 May, 2007 8:16 am

How can being strong not be functional? It’s all about motor unit recruitment and rate coding. Once you understand that, strength training will all make sense (yes, even dynamic strength).

However that is not the point. Functionality is synonamous with specificity. Many exercises and training principles have have a cross over effect meaning that, for example, you can train by incorperating a heavy deadlift in to your routine to bring down your 5k time, as well as help bring down your 100 metre sprint time, if that is your goal. This is sometimes refered to as general physical preparedness (GPP). However, it would not take up a large percentage of training time allocation. If, on the other hand, you were specifically trying to increase your deadlift numbers in view of competing in an up coming powerlifting meet (where one of the lifts competed in is the deadlift for those who don't know), then clearly a lot more time would be spent in the power rack practicing and training on the deadlift.

As for press ups being specific to the job carried out by a Royal Marine, in what instances would you need to do that particular movement pattern over and over again?

Do you need to beable to lift heavy weights to get into the Royal Marines? No, no you don’t. However I can only see benefits if it is suitably included in an overall training programme.



For those who are interessted to know, many Strength coaches consider a decent bench press number to be between 1.25 and 1.5 x bodyweight (raw).

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Spence
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#32 Post by Spence » Tue 15 May, 2007 8:19 am

but the point im getting at is that the results of doing the bench press are less functional in that your only really trained to do the bench press


Much like in the way that by only training with press ups, you will be awesome at press ups and not much else.

and you'll find that although these people who train like meatheads can lift heavy weights,they get tired after very few reps,which is not very functional at all is it
Actually, that is very "functional" if you are a powerlifter.

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#33 Post by Mitch » Tue 15 May, 2007 11:49 am

"However I can only see benefits if it is suitably included in an overall training programme. "

Can you give an example? I'm looking to improve press ups as my max is only about 30-35.

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#34 Post by degrees of passion » Tue 15 May, 2007 12:44 pm

spence,im not trying to argue all im saying is that as far as functionality goes with regard to being a marine,press ups are much more useful than bench press,end of.like i said i love the bench press and do appreciate its benefits and incorporate it into my routine,and yes your right functionality is synonamous with specificity,but i'd of thought that this being a marines forum and the fact that i related it to the marines that the functionality i was talking about concerned being a marine NOT a powerlifter.
Much like in the way that by only training with press ups, you will be awesome at press ups and not much else.
like i said before not true,see last post about core stability and muscular endurance etc
I can only see benefits if it is suitably included in an overall training programme.
me too!i didnt say it was'nt beneficial its just a fact that the PTI isnt going to give a toss how much you can press thats all.

dont take this as a direct stab at you spence cos it probably wasn't your intention its just i always seem to get the feeling that people on internet forums always feel the need to pick apart other posts and argue for the sake of it,rather than trying to help each other advance our knowledge.
Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour'

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#35 Post by dwarfy » Tue 15 May, 2007 1:17 pm

Right im not going to claim im an expert on this subject im far from it, i dont know much about the biomechanics or physiology of this topic or even if those are related to it anyway. All im going on is my expereince of it.

I am 5ft 4inch (yes very funny) and weigh at present 67kg.

Before i entered RT in 2003, i was doing around 4 workouts a week on a free weights bench, that included bench press. At the time i lifted 60kg (around 8-12 reps and five times). I was running 3 miles in 20.00 minutes aprx mins and following a routine that i had written out and followed.

Once i left training and went to university i found i had more time on my hands and whilst continuing with my usual running program i had used prior to RT i also began spending more time on the weights bench.
After around a year or so having trained alot on the bench i was now benching comfortably 81kg for 8-12 reps (so an increase of 20kg). I began to then notice that though i was keeping to my running program my times were getting worse, and i could only attribute this to the fact that i had gained weight from bulking up from weightlifting, i now weighed
71kg (i had only weighed 64kg on my PRMC).

In the end i stopped lifting the heavier weight and concentrated on lower weights with higher reps and did more of a circuit type training session on the weights bench, and incorporated press ups and sit ups into the routine.
I found in time that my endurance seemed to improve massively and although i couldnt lift the heavier weight anymore my overall ability was much better. My press ups were good, my sit ups were good my running was back on track and my lifting ability was still ok.

Personally from my experience i feel that at the times i was NOT lifting heavy weights i was in the best condition to be entering RT. I am sure that the heavier weights were effecting my running (due to weight increase in bulking up) and that it was also effecting my press ups and general ciruits ability(though admtidly in this case it may have been because i substitued press ups for weights work).

I just feel that there is no real need at all to be lifting heavy weights before RT, and that if you are not careful and consious of it the likelyhood is that it would do more harm than good before entering RT. You do not want to be bulky for RT,ideally you want a good strengh to body weight ratio, which i feel for RT is better achieved without the lifting of heavy weights. The fact is alot of Recruits who struggle on the ropes, which are a big part of RT, are those who are bulky and carrying a heavier weight and if this can be avoied then its best to just that surely. Some people are natrually big, and have no choice, but some who arent do have the choice.

dwarfy

P.S i know the original post was not actually in reference to training for RT, but some of the discourse since has been.

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#36 Post by ali_hire » Tue 15 May, 2007 2:36 pm

Spence wrote:
ali_hire wrote:Lifting heavy weights in preparation for PRMC or RT is only going to have a negative effect.
Care to elaborate on this?
Certainly.

Heavy weight lifting = bigger muscles = more bodyweight = more weight to carry around the assault course = slower time

That it why I said heavy weights and in preparation for PRMC or RT.
Aways look on the bright side of life.

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#37 Post by jammin87 » Wed 16 May, 2007 4:30 pm

I'm pretty sure you can lift heavy weights with low reps for strength training, and if it is done correctly you'll not gain much weight, just additional strength. Lifting weights a bit lighter than that for around 8-12 reps is what makes you bigger.
Doing weights can be great for your core strength too, which will be important when you're carrying a fair bit of kit I'd imagine.

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#38 Post by degrees of passion » Wed 16 May, 2007 5:13 pm

Lifting weights a bit lighter than that for around 8-12 reps is what makes you bigger.
NO :evil: .you get bigger muscles by increasing the intensity of the contraction,ie/bigger weights.Most people do sets of 10-12 in the gym because its a sensible compromise,but you'll find that for pure muscle mass gain its more in the region of 3-6 reps,hence why bodybuliders who are looking to put masses of muscle on dont do 10-12 reps with lighter weights,they do no more than 6 reps and usually no more than 3 sets with the maximum weight they can lift for those reps.

if you want to gain just additional strength,as in maximum strength, and no weight,then you have to concentrate more on training the nerves that supply the muscles and train without exhausting the muscle,as outlined in 'naked warrior'.Secondly it is advisable to train for muscular endurance by doing many reps and many sets,this will give you significant increases in strength without putting too much weight on.

In my opinion weight training has many many good benefits with regard to training for RM and is a perfect supplement to cardio and circuit training.However,i would advise that you aim firstly for musculary endurance and core stability,secondly for maximum strength,and then only ever for extra muscle when your body is in a position of supreme fitness to handle that extra muscle-consolidate what you've got first before expanding,or you'll find yourself in the same position as the roman empire! :you'll have too much muscle(weight) and not the fitness to carry it.
Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour'

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#39 Post by eagleeye » Wed 16 May, 2007 5:43 pm

There shouldnt really be a problem if you keep running at least four times a week, if you do Bulk weights but for RM its best you do Muscular Endurance and train your body to handle weights for long periods of time.

10-12 reps 60% of your repitition maximum is what you should be doing for Muscular Endurance. Also you should be doing Core exercises like the Bench press or Laterial pull downs all found at any decent gym.

This is A/S PE knowledge gents and this is exactly what my personal trainer has me doing!!!!

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#40 Post by Mitch » Wed 16 May, 2007 5:53 pm

then you have to concentrate more on training the nerves that supply the muscles and train without exhausting the muscle,as outlined in 'naked warrior'.Secondly it is advisable to train for muscular endurance by doing many reps and many sets
Doesn't Pavel say that doing many reps and many sets is bad? So far most of what has been said on this thread has just ended up confusing me!

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#41 Post by Artist » Wed 16 May, 2007 6:41 pm

Loads of very good replies. Well done!

Now listen in chaps. Once you hack the first few weeks you will have nought to do with the gym. You will be out in the field running over Woodbury Common/Dartmoor like gazelles!

Why Oh Why do you silly buggers worry so much about stuff that basically counts for bugger all? :o

Most replies come from people who have know idea about REAL Recruit training at CTC but what they have gleaned from various websites and blokes in Gyms who in most cases would not know a real Royal Marine from a lump of Blackpool rock!

Get a grip, hack the PRMC, and then go for it!!!

Pissed off bigtime with this sort of stupid pointless post! Situps, Press ups, You need to be able to do them to join after that forget them!!!!!!

What you need to be able to do is mapread, run, climb 30 foot ropes, get away with having your evil way with a Jenny Wren Driver on a Saturday night (well I did!), soldier to your best at all times, (the hardest part by far) and passout. Thats it in a nutshell. I did it in 1974 (joined in 1973)

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#42 Post by flying ninja » Wed 16 May, 2007 6:49 pm

You will be out in the field running over Woodbury Common/Dartmoor like gazelles!
Roffle, i can just imagine all these guys in combat dress in a large group running around with a sort of jump/skip every so often :D
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#43 Post by Artist » Wed 16 May, 2007 7:11 pm

flying ninja wrote:
You will be out in the field running over Woodbury Common/Dartmoor like gazelles!
Roffle, I can just imagine all these guys in combat dress in a large group running around with a sort of jump/skip every so often :D
No Ski jumps just loads of hassle. Theres the recruit troop troop all stood there at 0500hrs on Woodbury Commen. Kit inspection is started. Rifles are shitty. ditto personal admin. Result? You Beast them big time!

Point to a tree about 500 meters away. "Off you go gentlemen, first one back don't do it again" And......you stick to what you have said. Cracks people up and they then tend to wrap ASAP.

I've been there, got the T shirt so shit in it flying ninja! The Corp wants Guys with that little bit extra between their ears. And the Royal Marine training gets us the blokes that the Corps want. To wit blokes with so much confidence that they would take on ought thrown at them and win hands down!!

Artist

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#44 Post by flying ninja » Wed 16 May, 2007 7:18 pm

flying ninja wrote:
Quote:
You will be out in the field running over Woodbury Common/Dartmoor like gazelles!



Roffle, I can just imagine all these guys in combat dress in a large group running around with a sort of jump/skip every so often


No Ski jumps just loads of hassle. Theres the recruit troop troop all stood there at 0500hrs on Woodbury Commen. Kit inspection is started. Rifles are shitty. ditto personal admin. Result? You Beast them big time!

Point to a tree about 500 meters away. "Off you go gentlemen, first one back don't do it again" And......you stick to what you have said. Cracks people up and they then tend to wrap ASAP.

I've been there, got the T shirt so shit in it flying ninja! The Corp wants Guys with that little bit extra between their ears. And the Royal Marine training gets us the blokes that the Corps want. To wit blokes with so much confidence that they would take on ought thrown at them and win hands down!!

Artist
Sorry i didn't mean to offend Artist, it just put some funny pictures into my head with the words, running over Woodbury Common/Dartmoor like gazelles, I hope i've not said anything too offensive to you :(
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#45 Post by Artist » Wed 16 May, 2007 7:29 pm

flying ninja wrote: Sorry i didn't mean to offend Artist, it just put some funny pictures into my head with the words, running over Woodbury Common/Dartmoor like gazelles, I hope i've not said anything too offensive to you :(
You have not offended me in any way shape or form. It's just that I am so fed up with people gobbing off about stuff that they know sweet FA about concerning RM training.

Artist

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