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kwew
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Post by kwew »

On the bbc news website today there was an article about Jeremy Clarkson recieving and honorary degree and someone threw a pie in his face. An some environmentalist group arent happy with his bahaviour or whatever and they dont think he should be honoured.
"While other universities are rewarding the likes of Nelson Mandela, Brookes is rolling out the carpet for a dangerous buffoon, " she added.


then a spokeswoman makes this comment, how can you take these people seriously. Clarkson a dangerous buffoon, what about Nelson Mandela being a terrorist and a murderer?
Sarastro
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Post by Sarastro »

Yes yes, and Ghandi was a terrorist and Martin Luther King worked for the USSR!
harry73
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Post by harry73 »

Actually before he got locked up Nelson Mandela was head of the ANC. Who were a Terrorist organisation. They planted bombs and murdered allot of people including innocent women and children.

Dont get me wrong I like Mandela now, but he was a Terrorist in his past, and as for his murdering evil bitch of a wife dont get me started. As one of the leaders of the ANC when her husband was in prison she use to have rival Black tribes executed by burning them alive by putting burning tyres round there necks.

Harry :D
flynn101
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Post by flynn101 »

Wasnt the goverment nervous of introducing this new anti terror legislation as they might kick out a 'good terrorist' :lol:
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Post by Bliartheliar »

May I take this opportunity to recommend a book on the matter of who is a terrorist and who isnt:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... 80-4208466

Phil Rees, Dining With Terrorists.

One point he makes is that Nelson Mendela was not called a terorist by the West because to do so, it would be seen as supporting aparthied by condeming a resistance group.
Sarastro
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Post by Sarastro »

Yes Harry, thanks for the history lesson, I am well aware of what he meant. What I meant was that you can call most people in power all sorts of nasty names, it simply depends on your perspective (or how delusional you are). Mandela was called a terrorist for leading a resistance movement against what is widely accepted to have been a repressive and murderous regime; Ghandi was called a terrorist for the same thing (except you don't hear about it much, because he was called one by Britain); MLK was called a communist because, well, it was the style at the time.

Further, unless Kwew has some new evidence of direct involvement in a murder that nobody else in the world is aware of, Mandela can only be called a murderer in that people in his organisation committed violent acts which sometimes resulted in deaths, intentional or not. Here in the West, however, we changed our minds about apartheid being a good thing, so we no longer call him a terrorist or a murderer, seems Kwew took a while to catch up. By the same reasoning, we currently call lots of Chechen fighters 'terrorists', mostly because Russia wants us to, but I think you would find that 99.9% of the Chechen population would call them resistance fighters against an oppressive and unwelcome military occupation. Wonder what we will call them in a few decades time? Potato potato.

Of course, if you really want to use those definitions, then you would also have to call Blair, Bush, and many those who serve or served on these forums - including perhaps your good self - terrorists and murderers. Fancy doing that?

Anyway, Nelson Mandela hardly needs me to defend him, you can read it in his own words: Mandela's defence speech in court before being imprisoned
harry73
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Post by harry73 »

Yes Harry, thanks for the history lesson,
Dont mention it :D

harry
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Post by harry73 »

No seriously I know what your saying "one mans terrorist another mans freedom fighter".
But its the innocent who always get it. I'm sure the family of the Russian soldier who had his head sawn off by the rebels (i've seen it on the net) couldn't care less about the political situation. And all those who died by the actions of Mandelas ANC just wanted to live a life like everyone else but never will now.

I've nothing against Mandela, he did what he had to do, its the way the Left Wing treat him like some kind off god that p*sses me off . Its like the people off Socialist Worker (never done a days work in there lives I bet) rightly remind us off the millions who died under the Nazi. But shut shop when talking about the 150.000.000 who have died under socialist rule. Including 50.000.000 under Stalin.

harry
markthestab
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Post by markthestab »

i would say there is both chechen fighters and chechen terrorists

theres people fighting the russians in a gorrila war, fair enough

then theres sick bastards strapping bombs to themselves and killing hundreds of school children, these are terrorists

i would describe anyone who intentionally kills defenceless innocent members of the public rather than military targets in the hope of creating a climate of fear as terrorists

whatever race, religion or whatever they are if the intent is to kill women and kids they're scum

and any that help them, provide financial assistance etc are right down there with them

i dont know much about mandelas crimes or aleged crimes, but if he did any of the above then hes just as bad as anyone else

i dont think he did though, because i remember watching a documentary in mandela on channel 4 a while back witch was about his "dark side" and i can't recall any mention of him doing anything like that, just that he was jailed for being a member of the ANC, as far as im aware his crimes were only political
markthestab
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Post by markthestab »

harry73 wrote:No seriously I know what your saying "one mans terrorist another mans freedom fighter".
But its the innocent who always get it. I'm sure the family of the Russian soldier who had his head sawn off by the rebels (i've seen it on the net) couldn't care less about the political situation. And all those who died by the actions of Mandelas ANC just wanted to live a life like everyone else but never will now.

I've nothing against Mandela, he did what he had to do, its the way the Left Wing treat him like some kind off god that p*sses me off . Its like the people off Socialist Worker (never done a days work in there lives I bet) rightly remind us off the millions who died under the Nazi. But shut shop when talking about the 150.000.000 who have died under socialist rule. Including 50.000.000 under Stalin.

harry
i know what you mean harry, in ten years time i can honestly see osama bin laden as some sort of cult figure like che guvara, especially if britain keeps progressing (going backwards morelike) towards a semi-muslim state

but madela isnt in my opinion that sort of person
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Post by Sarastro »

Quick one.

Mark, agree.

Harry, you hate the hypocracy of feting someone for only one thing and ignoring the rest? Agreed! Exactly what I was talking about, there are two sides to every story. Moreover, the reason I react particularly badly to things like Kwew throwing 'Mandela is a terrorist and murderer' out there, is that they usually come from someone doing exactly the same as your Socialist Worker example: in this case far-right / racist fanatics or brainwashees focusing on 1 abberant fault and ignoring the other 99 good aspects which contradict it.
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Post by harry73 »

Fair one mate.

We all have our political views and no one is going to change em. Because of this we all see things in a narrow minded view. See the good side in your view off things but switch off to the bad side. Also people become hypocrites. For example the fuel protest, all the people against the protest are probably against em because there Labour supporters. If the Tories were in power those same people would be in favour of the protest. See what I'm trying to get at.

Harry
kwew
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Post by kwew »

All im trying to point out is that how can you hate some one like Mr Clarkson who we all know acts a bit of a fool sometimes and may drive a car a bit irresponsibly. Its just a silly comparison where you believe Mandela was a freedom fighter or not his organisation killed innocent people I dont think Clarkson has done the same so take off your training bra because its clearly to tight, stopping the oxygen getting to your brain, Im just saying its a silly comparison, get over yourself.
Sarastro
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Post by Sarastro »

Take off my training bra? Ok, there. Now, let's see if I can't strangle you with it.

First, how can you hate Clarkson. Don't mind him myself, but if these protesters were environmentalists as you say, then a wild guess: they don't appreciate his promotion of fast cars and industry (use lots of petrol > give out lots of chemicals > need lots of oil > bad for environment), and might just possibly see him as killing lots of people via, to pick a few, contributing to ozone depletion and thus skin cancer, bronchial diseases ad infinitum from smog, and to get really far out-field, creating a consumer need for oil which prompts politicians to invade other countries (and kill lots of people) or even ruining the planet for future generations thus, on a large enough scale, causing the genocide of the entire human race. That enough for you?

Though I doubt they actually believe the more extreme stuff there, I don't think they pied him for acting 'a bit of a fool sometimes'...

But let's move on. You also imply that Jeremy Clarkson > Mandela (and you were talking about silly comparisons...) because, freedom fighter or not, Mandela's organisation killed innocent people. Well, that brings me back to my second post. Should Tony Blair and our Forces be similarly treated? They might not have intended to, but they will certainly have killed innocent people at times (Blair by proxy as leader). Should we also blacklist Churchill, Montgomery, various WW2 anti-Nazi resistance organisations, Ghandi, Nelson, Washington, Elizabeth I, Caesar, Alexander the Great, every empire that has ever existed, and finally, the Pope and the Church (both Catholic & Protestant)? To name but a few. All of those have killed innocent people, intentionally or unintentionally, through the actions of them or their organisations, most of them a hell of a lot more than Mandela. But wait, I have a sneaking suspicion that you might have thought Stalin was a sterling chap circa. 1940's just because he was on our side at the time...

And of course, you are again missing out the other side of things. What has Clarkson done to contribute to the world? Reviewed some cars, presented some TV...er, that's it. Mandela, leads a resistance against oppressive, racist government, becomes a uniting figure for an entire people by enduring harsh imprisonment for decades while working for democracy, leads party in peacefully overturning said oppressive government and installing representative democracy, and might I add, does it in such a way that the rest of the world is amazed that South Africa actually avoided civil war and wins a Nobel Peace prize for it. Do you think it's just possible that you are ignoring some aspects of the argument? Or are you just some fundamentalist pro-lifer who regards any killing, abortion or eating of eggs for breakfast as a form of genocide?

Thanks for the advice about the training bra though, brain clearly working better with it round your neck instead of mine!
kwew
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Post by kwew »

I dont know the hell you think you are, but I already know all this crap and my opinion is that the man is still a terrorist in my eyes, am I not allowed differing opinions?
I dont tell you what to think so i would ask that you dont tell me, Im not some 16 year old kid you can just beat down. Im more than capable of learning the facts and forming my own (albeit different to yours) opinion.
Now really get over yourself no amount of facts and figures will change my opinion, its just an opinion Im not going to change the world so dont worry.
Im off to play with my action man anti terrorist team where we shoot Mandela, Im sorry if it offends you, ill phone the war crimes commission, give them a heads up.
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