im 26 jeb, and i dont consider myself the same as most of the current generation...
bring it back i say. beast some respect into the little bastards.
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National Service
I would like to say bring it back, but 1)i dont think the army would want to waste time on little shits who dont want to be there and 2)it would cost alot. But i do agree that with some military style discipline, the chav-types in this country will be straightened out good and proper.
Thats why i propose military discipline in schools as a possible solution
Pressups and burpees for disrupting class, and stress positions for late homework and a good old fashioned smack in the face for answering back to members of staff. It would have the antisocial youths of today sorted right out.
Thats why i propose military discipline in schools as a possible solution
Pressups and burpees for disrupting class, and stress positions for late homework and a good old fashioned smack in the face for answering back to members of staff. It would have the antisocial youths of today sorted right out.It wouldent work now days as they know they could get away with murder and just complain till their let off. Plus they know as soon as the 2 years are up bang they will be gone without thinking of staying.
That and making them walk around like a duck going quack quack quack.
Being made to do 15 minutes of "Mark time" ensuring the leg is lifted to a 90 degree angle with the foot parallel to the ground and keeping your arms tucked into the side of the body could work.Thats why i propose military discipline in schools as a possible solution Pressups and burpees for disrupting class, and stress positions for late homework and a good old fashioned smack in the face for answering back to members of staff. It would have the antisocial youths of today sorted right out.
That and making them walk around like a duck going quack quack quack.
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Bliartheliar
- Guest
These days the police are powerless to stop anti-social twats and feral youths unless thier is evidence that they have committed a crime. I doubt bringing back national service would be helpful. Peds made a good point - dropouts should be forced to do something if they are not doing anything already, just like adults should be forced to work if they refuse to - why should the taxpayer pay for thier living expenses?
But kids who are at school need more to do. After school many of them have nothing to do. We need more liesure and sports facilities, more clubs and study groups. OK, a lot will still refuse to do something, but some would choose to spend thier free time more productively. Teachers need more powers to enforce discipline in school and th system itself needs updated so kids know that an education is important. I know of several kids who openly boast that they are going to be drug dealers because they think, or know, that crime pays. One of the reasons why I reckon career criminals and drug dealers should be executed - to put kids off from following that route. The education system is still designed so that only the brighter students are encouraged to go on to further education. Some politicians belive that universities should become more elitist, so that only the top students can gain entry. I think this is wrong because it only puts potential students off. More univerisites should be built so that, instead of dropping out after thier GCSEs, a lot of kids have still got an opportunity to go on to further education. Not all of them are going to get straight As, so why block them from reaching thier potential. These days they are put off because of the limited space in colleges and universities. Scholerships are also a good idea, such as sports ones. Thier is a lot of talent among the youth of today that is wasted because it goes unrecognised. Allow them to follow thier goals.
I still reckon scare tactics would be a lot better. Disclpine and respect should be taught by the parents and expanded in schools. If there parents fail to bring them up right, punish them along with there kids. Along the way we should also scrap political correctness and lawsuits filed by such people, so theat these bastards dont have anything to hide behind.
The Benefits sytem in this country is mad. I always believed that only those who were looking for a job could claim them and that they had to take up a job if offered. Its not like that though - I was on the dole right after college while looking for a job but quickly one. I know for a fact that there are people who recieve thier benefit but have no intention to work, even if the opportunity arises. They get our tax money, and waste it on lager and ciggies, and thier f@#k kids. The problem goes unnoticed because people are too concerned with aslym seekers. We are being robbed by our own countrymen, and they are doing it legally.
As a sub point, I went to Japan and loved it - everything there was like it should be. The kids were respectful and wanted to learn in the schools to become doctors and lawyers. The people in general were polite and dedicated to thier work. The streets were clean, not one Japanese was fat as I can remember, the cities were flourishing and the trains ran like clockwork. I think one of the reasons for all this was national unity and patriotism - they wre proud of the county and were not affraid to show it. Here though, in Britain, that sense of patriotism and unity does not exist, especially amongst the younger generation (my one inlcuded). Im not saying that everybody should go out and flag wave to the queen (I wouldnt for one, but thats irrelevent) but people here should be proud of their country. But many are not. They abuse it and think that because they were born here, they dont have to give any input. They are increasingly becoming xenophobic, spoilt and arrogant. The politicians and tabloids are making it worse and trying to divert the problem by blaming it on others and through political correctness. This country needs a lot of sorting out.
By teaching discipline in the home and school, there will be no need for national service.
(Ovcourse, the majority of people are hard working, polite and respectful and patriotic).
But kids who are at school need more to do. After school many of them have nothing to do. We need more liesure and sports facilities, more clubs and study groups. OK, a lot will still refuse to do something, but some would choose to spend thier free time more productively. Teachers need more powers to enforce discipline in school and th system itself needs updated so kids know that an education is important. I know of several kids who openly boast that they are going to be drug dealers because they think, or know, that crime pays. One of the reasons why I reckon career criminals and drug dealers should be executed - to put kids off from following that route. The education system is still designed so that only the brighter students are encouraged to go on to further education. Some politicians belive that universities should become more elitist, so that only the top students can gain entry. I think this is wrong because it only puts potential students off. More univerisites should be built so that, instead of dropping out after thier GCSEs, a lot of kids have still got an opportunity to go on to further education. Not all of them are going to get straight As, so why block them from reaching thier potential. These days they are put off because of the limited space in colleges and universities. Scholerships are also a good idea, such as sports ones. Thier is a lot of talent among the youth of today that is wasted because it goes unrecognised. Allow them to follow thier goals.
I still reckon scare tactics would be a lot better. Disclpine and respect should be taught by the parents and expanded in schools. If there parents fail to bring them up right, punish them along with there kids. Along the way we should also scrap political correctness and lawsuits filed by such people, so theat these bastards dont have anything to hide behind.
The Benefits sytem in this country is mad. I always believed that only those who were looking for a job could claim them and that they had to take up a job if offered. Its not like that though - I was on the dole right after college while looking for a job but quickly one. I know for a fact that there are people who recieve thier benefit but have no intention to work, even if the opportunity arises. They get our tax money, and waste it on lager and ciggies, and thier f@#k kids. The problem goes unnoticed because people are too concerned with aslym seekers. We are being robbed by our own countrymen, and they are doing it legally.
As a sub point, I went to Japan and loved it - everything there was like it should be. The kids were respectful and wanted to learn in the schools to become doctors and lawyers. The people in general were polite and dedicated to thier work. The streets were clean, not one Japanese was fat as I can remember, the cities were flourishing and the trains ran like clockwork. I think one of the reasons for all this was national unity and patriotism - they wre proud of the county and were not affraid to show it. Here though, in Britain, that sense of patriotism and unity does not exist, especially amongst the younger generation (my one inlcuded). Im not saying that everybody should go out and flag wave to the queen (I wouldnt for one, but thats irrelevent) but people here should be proud of their country. But many are not. They abuse it and think that because they were born here, they dont have to give any input. They are increasingly becoming xenophobic, spoilt and arrogant. The politicians and tabloids are making it worse and trying to divert the problem by blaming it on others and through political correctness. This country needs a lot of sorting out.
By teaching discipline in the home and school, there will be no need for national service.
(Ovcourse, the majority of people are hard working, polite and respectful and patriotic).
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Bliartheliar
- Guest
What kids are taught in schools should be updated too, to increase awareness of history and respect. I have a lot of respect for my elders, and a lot more respect for veterens. But I dont think this exists any more among the youth - its not uncommon to here a youth shout abuse at an elederly person thse days (something that I never heard when I was younger). They need to be taught about british history to raise awareness of what thier gandparents achieved and what freedoms they have given them.
Also relgious education should be updated, and is very important especially today in my opinion. In my school there was no such thing as relgious education - it was only chritian education and the bible. For a start, ive always been an athiest so I wasnt interested anyway. But I didnt know anything about Islam, Bhuddism, Shintao, Judaism, Hinduism, etc, basically because I was not taught. It was only when I was in 6th form when I had to attend one RE lesson a week that I learned about such religions. I think a lot of racism comes from the fact that different cultres and traditions are not taught to people when they are young. We are forcibily brought up as christians. Its only when we get older that our parents and teachers believe that we have a right to choose. We need to teach kids about different relgions and traditions, not just Jesus Christ. If we show them, from an early age, that there is more than one way of life out there they will grow up to understand and respect them more.
MAny here will say that this is a christian country and it should stay that way. As an athiest, I disagree. We live in a multicultural society and we have a freedom to choose what relgion to practise if one at all. To continue to say that we live in a christian socliety will create further devisions that will lead to more clash of cultures and racism and xenophobia.
Also relgious education should be updated, and is very important especially today in my opinion. In my school there was no such thing as relgious education - it was only chritian education and the bible. For a start, ive always been an athiest so I wasnt interested anyway. But I didnt know anything about Islam, Bhuddism, Shintao, Judaism, Hinduism, etc, basically because I was not taught. It was only when I was in 6th form when I had to attend one RE lesson a week that I learned about such religions. I think a lot of racism comes from the fact that different cultres and traditions are not taught to people when they are young. We are forcibily brought up as christians. Its only when we get older that our parents and teachers believe that we have a right to choose. We need to teach kids about different relgions and traditions, not just Jesus Christ. If we show them, from an early age, that there is more than one way of life out there they will grow up to understand and respect them more.
MAny here will say that this is a christian country and it should stay that way. As an athiest, I disagree. We live in a multicultural society and we have a freedom to choose what relgion to practise if one at all. To continue to say that we live in a christian socliety will create further devisions that will lead to more clash of cultures and racism and xenophobia.
Having spoken to loads of guys who did National Service I would advocate the following.
Special National Service battalions where you served for 2 years if you met the following criteria:
1. On the dole for more than six months.
2. Received a custodial sentence from the courts. (not applicable for capital offences).
3. Received an ASBO from the courts.
4. Habitual drug user. (after spending time in compulsory rehab).
These units would not be allowed to serve alongside the colours except in times of national emergency.
After six months those who showed promise would be eligible for normal forces selection.
If a candidiate did not meet the criteria for normal selection or opted to serve his two years in total with an NS unit he would be subject to a parole period of two years after discharge. Any offence committed within that time would mean an automatic jail sentence of six months.
There's a lot more would need to be discussed with relation to the above but the introduction of such a system would take thousands of wasters off the streets, give them a short sharp shock, provide another source of recruits for the forces and increase the national reserve for times of emergency.
Special National Service battalions where you served for 2 years if you met the following criteria:
1. On the dole for more than six months.
2. Received a custodial sentence from the courts. (not applicable for capital offences).
3. Received an ASBO from the courts.
4. Habitual drug user. (after spending time in compulsory rehab).
These units would not be allowed to serve alongside the colours except in times of national emergency.
After six months those who showed promise would be eligible for normal forces selection.
If a candidiate did not meet the criteria for normal selection or opted to serve his two years in total with an NS unit he would be subject to a parole period of two years after discharge. Any offence committed within that time would mean an automatic jail sentence of six months.
There's a lot more would need to be discussed with relation to the above but the introduction of such a system would take thousands of wasters off the streets, give them a short sharp shock, provide another source of recruits for the forces and increase the national reserve for times of emergency.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam!
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Bliartheliar
- Guest
Maybe so, but if we continue to go down the same route and practicaly force our children to grow up as christians, they are going to see Mosques and other shrines as nothing but infringements on the British way of life. Racism and xenophobia is becoming exponentially more widespread, so repsect through awareness needs to be taught more in schools.owdun wrote:This multi-cultural society that you quote, is the product of the last 40-50 years. The Christian society is the product of over 1000 years in this country. The right to worship in different religions is not a modern right, it's a right thats evolved over many centuries, despite the wars between the two major Christian religions. With over 60 million souls living in this country, the majority not being Muslim, Hindu, Seikh, Jew, But basically Christian, I would say that this is a Christian country, and the term multi-cultural is one foisted upon us by the politically correct factions who really wish it were so, on the divide and conquer principle.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=395
I think we live in a multicultural society - we have million of blacks, white, asians, and millions of Muslims, Hindus and Chrisitians. We see the influences of foreign cultures and traditions in our everyday lives, from poeple on the streets, to music, food, clothes and communities in general.In England and Wales, 36 million people (nearly 7 out of 10) described their ethnicity as White and their religion as Christian.
Our politicians and leaders come from different backgrounds, races and believe in different relgions and follow different traditions. There are millions of families that describe themselves as mixed race and British Asians and British Africans. I think to say that we live in a christian society is simply wrong and untrue, as it is to say that we live in a white society.
Freedom of religion is a choice given to every man and woman in Britain because of the democracy that we live in. Ovcourse, a person's relgious belief is mostly down to thier familes beleif. Someone born into a christian fmaily has more chance to become a christian, as a baby born into a muslim family has more chance of becoming a muslim. Its the families choice to bring them up how they feel, and eventually the person's choice to decide what relgion to follow. The state should have no input.
To believe otherwise is to say that it is the duty of the state to ensure that the christian relgion remains dominant. I disagree with this entirely. The fact that you are a muslim or a christian does not make you more or less british. We are british because we were bron and raised in Britain. Im an athiest, but I dont think that I am less British because of it.
We live in the 21st century here. Scientific and technological advancement will bring greater understanding to the origions of life, although the ture reasons may never be known. Though I believe that relgious beliefs will remain as along as the human race survives. But what do we do if scientific knowledge becomes so advanced that it raises huge questions on the belief of god? Do we then limit scientific research to protect the chritian belief? Ovcourse we dont. The state cannot get involved with such decisions.
Look at the united states (as one example), where in some palces the truth has been twisted to accomodate relgious belief. I was reading the other week about a museum hat has been opened that twists the truth to spread the creationist theory - it says that humans and dinosuors have existed since the birth of the earth only a few thousand years ago, and that they lived at the same time - which is total rubbish. Yet people are prepared to belief this crap in order to protect thier beliefs. I dont wont to see such things happening in Britain, so that 'the way of life' is protected.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/internat ... 20,00.html
Getting back to the topic, I think that what GD is saying makes sense, rather than sending everyone to do national service.
I'm not exactly for national service, as someone said it isn't fair to punish all for the acts of few. I am however for the idea that if someone is found to behaving antisocially, criminally, or dangerously and send them to a special military institute rather than a prison. Teach them respect for themselves and the people around them. I also think that the welfare system in this country should be re-evaluated. As for having a license to have kids, hell yes. We need a license to drive a car, fire a gun, and own some pets. Why not to have kids?
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Bliartheliar
- Guest
Ill take the opportunity to put up the following link, since ive been raving on about things.
http://www.secularism.org.uk/
http://www.secularism.org.uk/
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stripey588
- Member
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Sat 16 Oct, 2004 10:13 pm
- Location: lancashire
it all starts babies.
how they are brought up and raised by their parents will shape them for life.
there are too many single parents, and kids are too eagre to hump anything that moves. the result is too many single mums.
not all are bad, but many are quite happy to drop a sprog, get a council house, then sit back and get bladdered on their handouts.
as soon as the kids start school, they are aware of their rights, and that teachers cant shout, intimidate, punsih, or even speak out of tone to them, but seem aware that they can abuse physicaly and mentally any teacher want.
start by taking the rights of the youth away, give some power of discipline back to the teachers, and that wil be a start.
a smack is a smack, abuse is something completely different.
unfortunatley, normally i would agree with national service being brought back, but as pointed put on here, some regulars may not want to serve with the type of scum that would be enlisted today (not generalising, but they are about).
the other downside is that the recruits of todays national service would know their rights inside out, and the MOD would have more lawsuits and payouts than recruits pasing out.
not to mention the job of being on the instructing staff. the methods that most of us would take on the chin, would be taken straight to the neareast solicitor, and the instructing staff would jack in droves.
GD'S idea may well be a start.
how they are brought up and raised by their parents will shape them for life.
there are too many single parents, and kids are too eagre to hump anything that moves. the result is too many single mums.
not all are bad, but many are quite happy to drop a sprog, get a council house, then sit back and get bladdered on their handouts.
as soon as the kids start school, they are aware of their rights, and that teachers cant shout, intimidate, punsih, or even speak out of tone to them, but seem aware that they can abuse physicaly and mentally any teacher want.
start by taking the rights of the youth away, give some power of discipline back to the teachers, and that wil be a start.
a smack is a smack, abuse is something completely different.
unfortunatley, normally i would agree with national service being brought back, but as pointed put on here, some regulars may not want to serve with the type of scum that would be enlisted today (not generalising, but they are about).
the other downside is that the recruits of todays national service would know their rights inside out, and the MOD would have more lawsuits and payouts than recruits pasing out.
not to mention the job of being on the instructing staff. the methods that most of us would take on the chin, would be taken straight to the neareast solicitor, and the instructing staff would jack in droves.
GD'S idea may well be a start.
yours aye
jason
www.savedutchy.co.uk
jason
www.savedutchy.co.uk
Not an effing chance.
Simply, the majority of the human race (and most other species) is always going to be weak / stupid / foolish / lazy / [insert derogatory adjective]. You cannot train soul into men. All you can do is indoctrinate or discipline, and history suggests that way produces the Hitler Youth or Spartan clones, not individuals of character. Who are the heroes of modern history? Churchill, Kennedy, Ghandi, hell even Jesus. All of these and more are distinguished not by their adherance to the current social mores, but by their individuality, that they were willing to break and change the rules of the world.
Using national service and it's extensions as a solution to all society's ills would simply create a generation reared on a dogma of obedience and discipline - not learned, or earned, but taught...with no understanding of what it actually means. Moreover, it would teach only a single ethos, not giving the individual choice - whether you agree or not - that we offer today. Not only would such a generation inevitably rebel against their teachers (as every generation for the past century has in turn), but lacking the chance to develop for themselves, they may lose both their Ghandis and Churchills. The brilliant general would disappear with the extraordinary peacemaker. Whats more, we would lose the accumulated wisdom of the millenia, just as every state imposed doctrine before - be it Nazism or Communism.
The fault of current society is that we are not willing to accept that most people fall by the wayside, that every human is not wonderful. We are taught that everyone has a unique value and their opinion is sacrosanct, no matter how ignorant, arrogant or plain wrong. The simple fact is that worth has to be earned, it cannot be taught. If you forced everyone through the trial of becoming a Royal or a Para, you would lessen and lose those who would have achieved that - and more - through their own will.
(As an example, in the only country of which I have met a decent number of citizens which requires meaningful national service - Israel - every Israeli man I have met [required to serve] supports pro-military, conservative policies, while most Israeli women support more conciliatory policy. Recent history suggests that the unilateral exercise of either policy has only damaged the Israeli position. Success, in politics as in life, requires balance.)
PS To elaborate, I also think that assorted feckless chavs / criminals / people I know could do with a fine kick up the arse, but I don't think it would do the slightest bit of good unless they wanted to change themselves. We have had retrograde national service in the form of the prison system for a long time, and the unfortunate fact is it doesn't work unless the individual works on themself.
Simply, the majority of the human race (and most other species) is always going to be weak / stupid / foolish / lazy / [insert derogatory adjective]. You cannot train soul into men. All you can do is indoctrinate or discipline, and history suggests that way produces the Hitler Youth or Spartan clones, not individuals of character. Who are the heroes of modern history? Churchill, Kennedy, Ghandi, hell even Jesus. All of these and more are distinguished not by their adherance to the current social mores, but by their individuality, that they were willing to break and change the rules of the world.
Using national service and it's extensions as a solution to all society's ills would simply create a generation reared on a dogma of obedience and discipline - not learned, or earned, but taught...with no understanding of what it actually means. Moreover, it would teach only a single ethos, not giving the individual choice - whether you agree or not - that we offer today. Not only would such a generation inevitably rebel against their teachers (as every generation for the past century has in turn), but lacking the chance to develop for themselves, they may lose both their Ghandis and Churchills. The brilliant general would disappear with the extraordinary peacemaker. Whats more, we would lose the accumulated wisdom of the millenia, just as every state imposed doctrine before - be it Nazism or Communism.
The fault of current society is that we are not willing to accept that most people fall by the wayside, that every human is not wonderful. We are taught that everyone has a unique value and their opinion is sacrosanct, no matter how ignorant, arrogant or plain wrong. The simple fact is that worth has to be earned, it cannot be taught. If you forced everyone through the trial of becoming a Royal or a Para, you would lessen and lose those who would have achieved that - and more - through their own will.
(As an example, in the only country of which I have met a decent number of citizens which requires meaningful national service - Israel - every Israeli man I have met [required to serve] supports pro-military, conservative policies, while most Israeli women support more conciliatory policy. Recent history suggests that the unilateral exercise of either policy has only damaged the Israeli position. Success, in politics as in life, requires balance.)
PS To elaborate, I also think that assorted feckless chavs / criminals / people I know could do with a fine kick up the arse, but I don't think it would do the slightest bit of good unless they wanted to change themselves. We have had retrograde national service in the form of the prison system for a long time, and the unfortunate fact is it doesn't work unless the individual works on themself.
Can't see how you can stand by those comments re academia. Some of our finest scholars, actors, entertainers, journalists etc etc etc, were all National Servicemen. If however you want to improve the lot of those who are going on National Service, include education. Day release for scholars. Another incentive you see.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam!
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Bliartheliar
- Guest
Social problems need social solutions to change them. Bringing back national service will not prevent people from becoming louts. Nor will today's shock tactics such as weekend jail or community service. You need to change the lifestyle of these people. This must be done thorugh improvements in education, economic and social standards and backed up with tough deterrents. I dont think that national service could beconsidered a deterrent, or community service for that matter.
But then again, the definition of anti-scoail behaviour is confusing. As one example, the streets of Liverpool must be some of the filthiest places in Britian, and the parks and waterways are a disgrace. The council doesnt do anything about this, but it has begun to fine people £200 for dropping a match in the city centre, or for not picking up thier dog's dirt. Why is this - to improve conditions? No. It is done so that the council can claim that it is taking a stance although it is doing practically nothing.
In my opinion, sociaety tolerates anti-social behaviour and yobbery. Instead of confronting the problem, people are prepared to ignore it and confront lesser problems instead. You cant pick up a paper these days without someone reffereing to cannibis, binge drinking and hooded tops. Its society that creates such yobbish behaviour and feral youths. There parents who dont give a toss about there kids behaviour as long as it doesnt affect them. They go out and spend all their money on designer clothes, fake jewelly, mobile phones and ipods and cars. The kids themselves dont want to learn anything in school because there parents will give them waht they want anyway. They hang around in gangs for protection, and create misery for others for enjoyment and to prove themselves to others. Its easier for kids to buy weed and ecstasy than it is for them to buy drink. They dont give a shit about anything or anyone, because in thier opinion nobody gives a shit about them. They expect respect, money and rights for nothing in return. When they grow up they carry these expectations with them. As a result they live off benefits, have little education and no real ambition. They are confined to a dead-end job, no money and no status. It is of little wonder that they may therefore turn to crime to get what they want. Then they pass that onto thier kids, who gorw up in exactly the same way.
You have to approach each problem individualy and create a solution. Thinking that all of societies problems will be sorted out with National Service is a gross over simplification.
But then again, the definition of anti-scoail behaviour is confusing. As one example, the streets of Liverpool must be some of the filthiest places in Britian, and the parks and waterways are a disgrace. The council doesnt do anything about this, but it has begun to fine people £200 for dropping a match in the city centre, or for not picking up thier dog's dirt. Why is this - to improve conditions? No. It is done so that the council can claim that it is taking a stance although it is doing practically nothing.
In my opinion, sociaety tolerates anti-social behaviour and yobbery. Instead of confronting the problem, people are prepared to ignore it and confront lesser problems instead. You cant pick up a paper these days without someone reffereing to cannibis, binge drinking and hooded tops. Its society that creates such yobbish behaviour and feral youths. There parents who dont give a toss about there kids behaviour as long as it doesnt affect them. They go out and spend all their money on designer clothes, fake jewelly, mobile phones and ipods and cars. The kids themselves dont want to learn anything in school because there parents will give them waht they want anyway. They hang around in gangs for protection, and create misery for others for enjoyment and to prove themselves to others. Its easier for kids to buy weed and ecstasy than it is for them to buy drink. They dont give a shit about anything or anyone, because in thier opinion nobody gives a shit about them. They expect respect, money and rights for nothing in return. When they grow up they carry these expectations with them. As a result they live off benefits, have little education and no real ambition. They are confined to a dead-end job, no money and no status. It is of little wonder that they may therefore turn to crime to get what they want. Then they pass that onto thier kids, who gorw up in exactly the same way.
You have to approach each problem individualy and create a solution. Thinking that all of societies problems will be sorted out with National Service is a gross over simplification.
