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Advice needed

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Sisyphus
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#16 Post by Sisyphus » Thu 13 Nov, 2008 6:29 pm

Techowiz wrote: Because whilst I can give an infomed opinion on the scientific crap they claim, as I have already mentioned I have no EOD experience, it was their persepective of the actual use of the equipment I was after.
Hang on. You have told us that: a) the equipment has no basis in EOD; b) The scientific claims are total fiction; c) We 'know' the equipment cannot and does not work.

These statements are not infomed (sic) opinion - they are statements of fact. Can you, then, enlighten us on how you know the kit doesn't work? For example, have you visited the countries which have bought the equipment and seen them trialled? Are you disenchanted employees from their R&D Department who've been sacked? Or what?????

Techowiz wrote:For the purpose of clarification perhaps you can declare whether you are associated with either of the two companies mentioned, the reason I suggest that is you describe as, 'drivel' any critiscism directed towards them.


Ah, Found Out!! I own both companies along with my grandson, his wife, the Ayatollah Khomeini and a third-party go-between of Osama Bin Laden.
I certainly wouldn't describe any reasonable and rational criticism against the two companies [or any other companies] for that matter as drivel - merely your bizarre ramblings.

Anyway, not to worry. I have emailed a link to this thread to the companies concerned. No doubt you'll be hearing from them in due course and will be able to discuss your concerns with them.

In the light of your certainty about the lack of science behind their claims perhaps you could pre-empt any move on their part by writing to the News Editor in the Sun or the Daily Sportand blowing their scam. They are always up for a good scoop.

Advertise your company or services here and contact us today!

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#17 Post by La Langosta » Thu 13 Nov, 2008 6:31 pm

So if neither of you are journos, how can you say...
There may be a press investigation into this equipment so people willing to go on the record would be most welcome.
One could assume that you've made contact with member(s) of the media fraternity to be able to even hint at the possibility of a press investigation.

I've briefly looked at both websites and would be interested to hear why YOU are so interested in particular. (other than what you have previously written)
What PROOF do you have that this equipment is not what it says on the tin??

and what credentials do YOU have, that allows you to (possibly) libel the 2 companies in question??

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#18 Post by La Langosta » Thu 13 Nov, 2008 6:32 pm

DANG!
Looks like you beat me to it Rocky :lol:

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Re: Thank you Rogue Chef

#19 Post by Sisyphus » Thu 13 Nov, 2008 6:48 pm

Scambuster wrote: We understand that Mr. Bolton takes overseas contacts to a REME facility somewhere in the U.K. to give the impression of U.K. army approval/involvement. This may involve paying off someone at the facility.

It would be very interesting to discover which facility?

Anyone who can get the word about or try to identify the REME facility you would be doing a great job!
No worries, young lady! No doubt the delay was due to you falling off your chair laughing and needing time to recover! :wink:

Anyway, I can't waste a second longer - I'm off to interview the entire Corps of REME to unmask the scoundrel responsible for this outrage, so I may be gone some time.

Still, you gorra laugh dontcha! :whistle: :silly:

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#20 Post by Sisyphus » Thu 13 Nov, 2008 7:04 pm

Hey up, Techo and Scumbaster,

While I'm interrogating REME would you like me to nip down to the Dept. of Trade and Industry and sort out who's taking back-handers and issuing export licences to these companies.

You know, that licence you need before you can export military and paramilitary goods - or technology that has a military application? :roll:

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#21 Post by jabcrosshook » Thu 13 Nov, 2008 9:03 pm

Image

magic
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Re: Advice needed

#22 Post by magic » Thu 13 Nov, 2008 10:05 pm

Techowiz wrote:Hi guys, a big salute to all our armed forces.

We need the help of the EOD people on this site.
We are investigating alleged explosives detectors, marketed in the UK by two companies:

ATSC Google ade 651 and look at ATSCltd
Global Technical Google GT200 and look at Global Technical
See second post for websites This crap is being marketed and sold all over the world as long range explosive detectors. If any EOD guys can have a look at the relevant websites and give an informed judgement it would be most appreciated.
There may be a press investigation into this equipment so people willing to go on the record would be most welcome.

God bless and protect you all.

Maybe we need to look at this propoerly. Global tech have a report from the UK users which seems to indicate some proof of capability. I understand a few users are positive about it and as a group of users do we not have the responsibility not to follow the crowd but make our own jugdements. what proof do you have it does not work, have you seen these kits work or understand what they do. Surely if there is some use it shoudl be addresed because otherwise there would be no advancement of technology and if we do not understand would it not be better to ask how does this seem to pass the tests of different governments and be acepted into use [ corruption does not answer all the questions]. I have seen many newspaper reports and saying it is working and the success they have so how can we judge effectively. follow the crowd? or make our own qulified judgements..

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It's very simple

#23 Post by Scambuster » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 12:31 am

1. ATSC have been offered the JREF (see www.randi.org) challenge to win 1 million dollars if they can prove that the ADE works. They have turned down the opportunity saying that the test will be either rigged against them or that they know why the equipment will not work in certain circumstances.

Sound legit to any of you guys? If you had a piece of kit that did what they say it can would you want to turn down an easy million bucks? Plus the publicity and thousands of sales that would result? Or, if you were tellin the truth then you would explain why the kit would not always work, wouldn't you?

2. We know that the ADE and GT kit derived from the MOLE which failed independent tests.

3. We believe that the MOLE was derived from/copied from the SNIFFEX. Check it out guys. The SNIFFEX fraudsters are facing jail/ are already in jail n the States.

4. Why is the kit not available in the U.K. or the U.S.?

5. If they have U.K. tests, MOD/ REME approvals why not just publish?

6. We do not care if these companies are informed of our hunt. They alraedy know about it.

7. The information we have has already been sent to various authorities including the MOD and all Defence Department Ministers. We are only interested in getting this near the top of the in trays of the right people, and if you want to help great. If not then don't bother debating this with us.

8. If any of the posters here have a personal interest in these products, watch out! Tenacity is the key to success and we will succeed!

9. It is very simple to test this equipment. There are simple double blinde protocols for such tests and we would be very happy to facilitate such testing. If anyone out there can get their hands on these bits of kit then let us know.

10. Do not waste your time taking the piss or trying to wind us up! You will not succeed! If you have nothing better to do, get a life, while we are trying to save some in our own small way.

11. Do your own research! If you do not believe dowsing is a scam find out about the ideomotor effect.

12. Now, to those of you who are here to try to divert us, you will fail. Those who have not looked into this before taking the piss, we do not care. For those who do care, spread the word.

Cheers,
SB

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Oh yeah

#24 Post by Scambuster » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 12:40 am


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#25 Post by Techowiz » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 12:53 am

[quote="Sisyphus
Hang on. You have told us that: a) the equipment has no basis in EOD; b) The scientific claims are total fiction; c) We 'know' the equipment cannot and does not work.

These statements are not infomed (sic) opinion - they are statements of fact. Can you, then, enlighten us on how you know the kit doesn't work?

I have already pointed out how this equipment does not work.
Perhaps you can take a look at the following links which may explain, obviously better than I have been able, the problems with this equipment:-


http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swi ... -jref.html
This challenge was directed at ATSC, with a cash reward of a million dollars if the company could simply prove the equipment works as advertised, to date ATSC or Global Technical have not taken up this challenge, I suppose you would respond with, 'who needs a million', ATSC is also seriously libelled in the challenge, with the equipment called amongst other things, 'a quack device', 'a fraud' and those that sell and market this equipment, 'thieves', 'faudsters', serious libel would you not agree, and what did these companies do, nothing.

http://www.justnet.org/Lists/JUSTNET%20 ... _apr02.pdf
This site relates to the testing of the MOLE system, this was the original name of the scam equipment now known as the GT200, by the US government testing lab at Sandia.
Sandia National Laboratories is designated a satellite facility of the National Institute of
Justice's (NIJ) Office of Science and Technology to work in partnership with the
NLECTC-Rocky Mountain. (hope their credentials are sufficient for you) :roll:
The MOLE was found to be no better than chance


http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2 ... se_sn.html
Bruce Schneier has a Master's degree in computer science from American University and a Bachelor of Science degree in physics from the University of Rochester. Before Counterpane, he worked at the United States Department of Defence and then AT&T Bell Labs. In August 1999, Schneier founded Counterpane Internet Security. Counterpane was acquired by BT in October 2006, and is now known as BT Managed Security Solutions. Schneier is currently the Chief Security Technology Officer of BT.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/178913-1.pdf
This is a comprehensive report into the testing of explosive detectors. It is carried out by the US Law Enforcement and Corrections Standards and Testing Program, sponsored by the US National Institute of Justice. There is a warning within the report that headlines, 'Warning do not buy Bogus Detectors', it then goes on to describe the equipment sold by ATSC and Gulf Technical.
ATSC and Gulf Technical have been asked for their list of experts, rather surprisingly, except perhaps you, no-one has come forward.



For example, have you visited the countries which have bought the equipment and seen them trialled? Are you disenchanted employees from their R&D Department who've been sacked? Or what?????

The answer is no to both parts of your question.
Techowiz wrote:For the purpose of clarification perhaps you can declare whether you are associated with either of the two companies mentioned, the reason I suggest that is you describe as, 'drivel' any critiscism directed towards them.


'Ah, Found Out!! I own both companies along with my grandson, his wife, the Ayatollah Khomeini and a third-party go-between of Osama Bin Laden'.
What were you saying about bizarre ramblings???
Anyway, not to worry. I have emailed a link to this thread to the companies concerned. No doubt you'll be hearing from them in due course and will be able to discuss your concerns with them.
Well we can but hope, they have so far ignored the chance of a million dollar prize just for proving their equipment works as described. As well as being panned throughout the web they have yet to respond. As their self elected defender, perhaps you could tell us all how this equipment works, thought not! I note you never answered my question, as to whether you would go into a minefield with this equipment, any chance of an answer?
In the light of your certainty about the lack of science behind their claims perhaps you could pre-empt any move on their part by writing to the News Editor in the Sun or the Daily Sportand blowing their scam. They are always up for a good scoop.[/quote]
Good informative quality newspapers you read :roll:

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#26 Post by Techowiz » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 1:28 am

La Langosta wrote: One could assume that you've made contact with member(s) of the media fraternity to be able to even hint at the possibility of a press investigation.
Correct

I've briefly looked at both websites and would be interested to hear why YOU are so interested in particular. (other than what you have previously written)
Is there anything more important than the protection and saving off life?

What PROOF do you have that this equipment is not what it says on the tin??
Apart from what I have written above, if it did what it said on the tin, the likes of you and all the other units in the military would have about a hundred units each. Do you not find it even remotely strange that this amazing equipment is not in use by any UK or US forces?

and what credentials do YOU have, that allows you to (possibly) libel the 2 companies in question??
Because I believe that private companies putting the lives of soldiers and police officers at serious risk based on scam equipment is wrong, clearly you and some of the other posters on here don't agree and are happy for your brother soldiers to be killed or maimed by using this crap, everyone should be able to express their view. It would only be libel if what I have written is untrue, so therefore no libel.

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#27 Post by La Langosta » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 8:12 am

So apart from directing us to various weblinks, what proof do YOU have?

Unlike some people, I dont have hours on end at my disposal to trawl round the internet looking at various websites.

You still havent told us what your credentials are.
Some of are already aware of the credentials of the "great debunker", James Randi and some of the others you have posted links to.

BTW...I thought the $1million prize fund from the JREF was awarded when someone could prove they had supernatural ability ie paranormal activity etc under scientific conditions.

Are you now saying that these detection devices are used via some mystical, paranormal power of thought?? :-?

As I've just read on the Randi website, he himself doesnt actually offer any proof that this equipment doesnt work, only a statement offering someone/ anyone the opportunity to step forward and attempt to prove that it doesnt work.
Okay. Here’s a simple statement from the James Randi Educational Foundation. It’s in clear, basic English, plain language, direct and unequivocal. It’s directed to any of the manufacturers, distributors, vendors, advertisers, or retailers of the ADE651® device as described above:

This Foundation will give you our million-dollar prize upon the successful testing of the ADE651® device. Such test can be performed by anyone, anywhere, under your conditions, by you or by any appointed person or persons, in direct satisfaction of any or all of the provisions laid out above by you.

No one will respond to this, because the ADE651® is a useless, quack, device which cannot perform any other function than separating naïve persons from their money. It’s a fake, a scam, a swindle, and a blatant fraud. The manufacturers, distributors, vendors, advertisers, and retailers of the ADE651® device are criminals, liars, and thieves who will ignore this challenge because they know the device, the theory, the described principles of operation, and the technical descriptions given, are nonsense, lies, and fraudulent.

Prove me wrong and take the million dollars. I am James Randi, citizen of the United States of America, resident in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and thoroughly identified through the James Randi Educational Foundation described at www.randi.org.
Now call me a cynic, but are you merely trying to get your hands on this piece of equipment so that you can apply to the JREF and attempt to get your hands on the prize fund?
If so, I applaude your entrepreneurship in these times of the so-called global credit crunch.

As yet though, you still havent offered any proof, scientific or otherwise as to why you maintain that these people are criminals and hoaxers. All you have done is repost other peoples views on the subject and even then, some of those are pretty sketchy.

I have no objections to people giving an alternate viewpoint of things and making others stop and think, but I also prefer to have all the FACTS at my fingertips to enable me make a judgement or come to my own opinion on things.

When you have proper facts, researched by yourself and not just via websites, but thru proper R&D materials and reports from testing and also from proper "in-the-field" accounts, then I'm sure people will be more than interested to hear what you have to say.
At the moment though, you are just sounding like someone with an axe to grind.

Of course people here are concerned if peoples lives are at risk, and for you to say otherwise is rather disrespectful to the people who you are trying to gain support from.

As for the UK not using this equipment, perhaps its because there is such a thing as a procurment chain of command in place...who can really say??
By the time the MoD is likely to give any equipment the go-ahead, its more than likely to have already been superceded by something else. So in effect, there is time yet, for this equipment to find its way to our guys.
unless of course, you prove otherwise

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#28 Post by Techowiz » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 11:15 am

La Langosta wrote:So apart from directing us to various weblinks, what proof do YOU have?

The proof is within the quoted links, i.e. The testing at the Sandia Labs, the testing by the National Institute of Justice......

BTW...I thought the $1million prize fund from the JREF was awarded when someone could prove they had supernatural ability ie paranormal activity etc under scientific conditions.
You are of course correct, and normally that is indeed the case, but in the light of claims made by the makers of this equipment, Randi issued the challenge to them.
Are you now saying that these detection devices are used via some mystical, paranormal power of thought?? :-?
Could you point me in the direction of where I have said that or even made that ridiculous suggestion?

As I've just read on the Randi website, he himself doesnt actually offer any proof that this equipment doesnt work, only a statement offering someone/ anyone the opportunity to step forward and attempt to prove that it doesnt work.
It is actually the opportunity to step forward to prove it DOES work. Which is why it has not been taken up, don't you even wonder why?
Okay. Here’s a simple statement from the James Randi Educational Foundation. It’s in clear, basic English, plain language, direct and unequivocal. It’s directed to any of the manufacturers, distributors, vendors, advertisers, or retailers of the ADE651® device as described above:

This Foundation will give you our million-dollar prize upon the successful testing of the ADE651® device. Such test can be performed by anyone, anywhere, under your conditions, by you or by any appointed person or persons, in direct satisfaction of any or all of the provisions laid out above by you.

No one will respond to this, because the ADE651® is a useless, quack, device which cannot perform any other function than separating naïve persons from their money. It’s a fake, a scam, a swindle, and a blatant fraud. The manufacturers, distributors, vendors, advertisers, and retailers of the ADE651® device are criminals, liars, and thieves who will ignore this challenge because they know the device, the theory, the described principles of operation, and the technical descriptions given, are nonsense, lies, and fraudulent.

Prove me wrong and take the million dollars. I am James Randi, citizen of the United States of America, resident in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and thoroughly identified through the James Randi Educational Foundation described at www.randi.org.
Now call me a cynic, but are you merely trying to get your hands on this piece of equipment so that you can apply to the JREF and attempt to get your hands on the prize fund?
If so, I applaude your entrepreneurship in these times of the so-called global credit crunch.
LOL, thank you for that, verry funny.

As yet though, you still havent offered any proof, scientific or otherwise as to why you maintain that these people are criminals and hoaxers. All you have done is repost other peoples views on the subject and even then, some of those are pretty sketchy.
Whilst I fully appreciate you don't have all day to trawl websites, if you do get the chance to read the report from Sandia and then the National Institute for Justice, you may perhaps consider that proof. With respect, when a Government test lab with the status that Sandia has, said, 'it doesn't work', and headlines with, 'Don't buy bogus detectors', I would say that is somewhat explicit, perhaps just above 'sketchy'.

I have no objections to people giving an alternate viewpoint of things and making others stop and think, but I also prefer to have all the FACTS at my fingertips to enable me make a judgement or come to my own opinion on things.
Rightly so, and what research have you done to bring these facts to your fingertips, apart from looking at the companies shiny websites, have you for instance questioned the claims they make within their websites? Researched the scientific claims?

When you have proper facts, researched by yourself and not just via websites, but thru proper R&D materials and reports from testing and also from proper "in-the-field" accounts, then I'm sure people will be more than interested to hear what you have to say.
At the moment though, you are just sounding like someone with an axe to grind.
That of course is the power of the internet, no longer do we have to trawl through reference books, although I can point you in the direction of some regarding the scientific claims if that would assist.
As regards reports from testing, apart from the ones I have outlined above there are none, the reason is because the companies mentioned won't put their equipment forward for independent testing, in your quest for all the facts perhaps you could ask, why they don't take the easy million, go for independent testing and shut us all up. They won't simply because they know they will be exposed. When these frauds put peoples lives at risk then I do have an axe to grind.


Of course people here are concerned if peoples lives are at risk, and for you to say otherwise is rather disrespectful to the people who you are trying to gain support from.
Please be assured that I have the utmost respect and admiration for our armed forces, but if you read over some of the posts from your colleagues, they seem rather blase to the real risk to life that the use of this equipment poses. I did wonder if it is because it is only foreign soldiers and police officers who were at risk.

As for the UK not using this equipment, perhaps its because there is such a thing as a procurment chain of command in place...who can really say??
By the time the MoD is likely to give any equipment the go-ahead, its more than likely to have already been superceded by something else. So in effect, there is time yet, for this equipment to find its way to our guys.
unless of course, you prove otherwise
I understand about the procurment chain of command, but look again at the claims these people make, the ability to detect anything from trace elements of explosives to tons of the stuff, firearms of any description, if it could actually do any of this the pressure to purchase would be unbearable for any government office to resist.
Not withstanding the military red tape about purchase, the Police and Customs have the ability to buy equipment as needed, so why haven't they bought it? Don't forget this equipment can detect drugs at great distances, we live on an island, using this magic equipment we could effectively wipe out the scurge of drugs in this country before christmas, the Police and Customs are not interested, could you offer any possible explanation for that?

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Re: Advice needed

#29 Post by Techowiz » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 12:05 pm

magic wrote:[Maybe we need to look at this propoerly. Global tech have a report from the UK users which seems to indicate some proof of capability.
Where, I've never seen it, could you perhaps post it on here for instance?

Surely if there is some use it shoudl be addresed because otherwise there would be no advancement of technology and if we do not understand would it not be better to ask how does this seem to pass the tests of different governments and be acepted into use [ corruption does not answer all the questions].
Believe me when I say that if this stuff worked as claimed, I would be its greatest supporter, and my campaign would be for every military and law enforcement unit to be issued with it.

I have seen many newspaper reports and saying it is working and the success they have so how can we judge effectively. follow the crowd? or make our own qulified judgements..
[/quote]
Where are these, 'numerous newspaper reports'?
regards

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La langosta etc

#30 Post by Scambuster » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 12:49 pm

This is the last time I am going to respond to your pointless and ignorant criticisms of what we are doing here. If you do not have the time to look into this properly as you say, do not bother posting about it!

We have shown you all a trail from the fraudulent SNIFFEX product, via the MOLE to the ADE and GT products.

SNIFFEX failed, MOLE failed. ADE and GT are no different. Just a bit of plastci moulding with a standard radio type antenna attached, and some completely useless electronic bits bunged in.

Unless you or anyone here has an interest in these products i.e. is being paid off, the suggest you stop wasting your time defending them in any way.

It only takes a tiny bit of research to know that they are fraudulent. Doesn't matter whether that research is internet based or not.

You witter on about the JREF challenge without knowing anything about JREF at all, obviously. Anyway, the issue is the challenge has been made and turned down, which makes no sense whatsoever!

Like I say, go post your cynicism elsewhere and let people who do want to stop these fraudsters get on with it.

By the way, whether you are in the Armed Forces or not, you have no idea whatsoever about procurement!

I suggest that those who are attackin Techo and me are either a) involved in the scam or b) have nothing better to do than argue pointlessly.

If you want to comment, go away, do the research and come back. Explain why, for example, in clear, reasoned terms, anyone would turn down an easy million bucks, plus all the publicity and resultant sales. In fact, if I was the companies involved and I really believed in my product that is exactly what I would do. Take the Randi challenge. Win the mill, and sit back and watch the orders come in, plus of course the knighthoods etc etc.

We know full well that the claims that these devices use 'electrostatic attraction' are technically impossible.

Like I say, all we want is to get the issues to the forefrongt of peoples minds so that these guys no longer ride around getting fat of lies and potential deaths.

So, like say La Langosta and Sisyphus especially, if you don't like what we are doing, who cares! Go elsewhere! If you respond again I will have to consider that you may have an interest in these companies and are therefore possibly corrupt.

I will only post again if we have more useful informtion or progress, or in response to sensible contributions.

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