MilitaryForums.co.uk

...In my reading, then backed-up by my travels... the descriptions of 'Rites of Passage' from a number of sources described these 'Rites' as an event ( preceeded by appropriate training, to one extent or another) which would usher an individual into the 'full adult membership' of a tribal group.
...It seems to me that our western cultures have to a great extent disenfranchised our citizens (Male AND Female) unless they 'happen' into a rite of passage accidentally (such as a war where one got shot at, learned to keep one’s head sufficiently to operate, live, think, and shoot back...or in a workplace where one might learn comparable skills... ie. warriors, wives, farmers, and artisans--all necessary to a civilization).
...So, it seems that many of our citizens (male and female) literally have no idea as to what is expected of them or indeed which way to turn to find out. Are there any surprises when we turn into uneducated oligarchies? Are there any to ask, "Why aren't we fighting off the barbarians?" It seems to me there are only a few of us (the Members, current and past, of the Legions from all the far corners of the world, and the women who hold their end of all this) powerless, unarmed... while the Leaders run about wringing their hands over why the geese haven't sufficient habitat… does all this make YOU think of the ‘Fall of Rome’? I have been thinking on this one for a long time and it has been itching between my ears for just as long. So, step up, boys & girls…and give me YOUR answer… I’m interested.

The fall of Rome Hercky, yeah it does remind me. I wonder though, do we deserve any better?

Well, guys, it's worth noting that "the fall of Rome" has been a constant worry throughout American history so it warms my heart to see it continue. It tells me something is still right. Truth be told, I think my generation was inferior to the current generation. My eyes and ears tell me that today's American kids are stronger, braver and a hell of a lot more idealistic than we were. I just wish they had better leaders, that's all.

Rather than Rome . . . and I hate to mention this on British military website . . . but what seems the better metaphor model for the US would be Great Britian at some time-step so many years back? Maybe pre-WWII? Dunno.

Sitting on top of everything and watching it slip away. Currency going worthless, trade falling apart against the world's greatest trader? And thinking that our great military would/could/should keep everything, everywhere in order?

As far as the "rite of passage" stuff goes, it seems most of US culture either tries to alienate, control, or exploit the youth. Maybe that is the "rite?"

If you use the Brit Empire analogy, then Vietnam would be WWI and Iraq would be WWII. Hmm.

Whitey wrote:The fall of Rome Hercky, yeah it does remind me. I wonder though, do we deserve any better?

unless something fortuitous happens (as in, even a blind pig sometimes finds an acorn...) or we do something... I fear. At the moment, I'm not sure we do deserve any better....just hope we get lucky, I guess.

If you use the Brit Empire analogy, then Vietnam would be WWI and Iraq would be WWII. Hmm.

I don’t know if in metaphor speak, you can do exact analogies – “A is to B as C is to D” or not. But I would probably use the overall cold war as comparable to WWI for the British, and our “War on Terra” (if fully realized) as comparable to WWII. By the time Britain “won” it was virtually wiped out.

Vietnam was only a major extended battle in this comparison, as Iraq is alleged to be in the present “War on Terra.”

Although the end of WWI allowed Britain and France to claim victory, Germany was not out of the game. Same with Russia, we did not actually “beat” Russia. They stopped first. Still have their nukes, and better ones. Many have been suspected to be shipped out via the black market, mostly targeted here.

After WWI, Germany sat back, licking its wounds, and as they say, the rest is history.

Phildo wrote:

If you use the Brit Empire analogy, then Vietnam would be WWI and Iraq would be WWII. Hmm.

I don’t know if in metaphor speak, you can do exact analogies – “A is to B as C is to D” or not. But I would probably use the overall cold war as comparable to WWI for the British, and our “War on Terra” (if fully realized) as comparable to WWII. By the time Britain “won” it was virtually wiped out.

Vietnam was only a major extended battle in this comparison, as Iraq is alleged to be in the present “War on Terra.”

Although the end of WWI allowed Britain and France to claim victory, Germany was not out of the game. Same with Russia, we did not actually “beat” Russia. They stopped first. Still have their nukes, and better ones. Many have been suspected to be shipped out via the black market, mostly targeted here.

After WWI, Germany sat back, licking its wounds, and as they say, the rest is history.

....OK...cool... but watcha tink bout da rites uh passige? OPINIONS, MAN...I want opinions!

Oh sure Herc,

(sorry to everyone non-US, that this is so US-centered, but we see ourselves as the center and only real part of the world )

As far as rites of passage, is not that what the whole "Skull and Bones" crypt thing is about? So the top dogs know they are going to be top dogs.

And not only the top dogs have this, the Crips (urban gang) have their rites, too. I suppose working slobs, also . . . first job at a McDonalds is a common one. Army sort of operates with one -- graduation from Basic Training.

Is there one common to the US (or broader, Western) culture? I don't think so. Like Whitey (who has reached guru status ) said sometime ago, the only thing most of the US has in common with most of the US is the dollar. One nation under the dollar.

Phildo wrote: Oh sure Herc,

As far as rites of passage, is not that what the whole "Skull and Bones" crypt thing is about? So the top dogs know they are going to be top dogs.

And not only the top dogs have this, the Crips (urban gang) have their rites, too. I suppose working slobs, also . . . first job at a McDonalds is a common one. Army sort of operates with one -- graduation from Basic Training.

Is there one common to the US (or broader, Western) culture? I don't think so. Like Whitey (who has reached guru status ) said sometime ago, the only thing most of the US has in common with most of the US is the dollar. One nation under the dollar.

... ok, but what I am looking for is what kind of training, then RITES do we have to prepare kids for being an intelligent citizen... ? Able to think critically? Educated and willing to stand up ...

I think these days the most common rite of passage is the series of school graduations that people go through. But a larger issue is this: In a free society, there is not likely to be a single "rite." That's the nature of being free to live as you choose.

My dad and the military took care of that for me. My dad taught me to farm, hunt and fish, build fires and to go to a firing squad rather than change my beliefs.
The military taught me and tested me on weapons, drinking and leading other men. They also taught me all women are _______ except your mother or your sister, but that even they were ________ at one time.

Just kidding, they did teach us that, but it isn't always true.

Whitey wrote:My dad and the military took care of that for me. My dad taught me to farm, hunt and fish, build fires and to go to a firing squad rather than change my beliefs.
The military taught me and tested me on weapons, drinking and leading other men. They also taught .............Just kidding, they did teach us that, but it isn't always true.

Funny, I am the same, but for learnin ranching instead of farming... and both Dad and GranDad taught me critical thinking and to go down fighting rather than turn on my beliefs or honor. They kept their word if they gave it, and they fought to defend their beliefs.
.................................... ...............

Fascinating Herc!! Weird too...

The last few nights i've been reading the Folio Societies "The Middle Ages"...and the first book in the series starts off with the fall of Rome and the Barbarian inva2sions. Day and night i've been making the comparisons, some work...some don't.

1. As barbarian tribes (germanic mostly) started to flood throughout Rome, they infact weren't they're to conquer (as perceived by many), they literally just wanted to set up camp and milk the Empire for what it's worth..hmm, i can see deffinite comparisons in the modern West, but i would probably be accused of being racist.

2. Elite Roman classes got eliter, eliter, and...eliter. They distanced themselves from the populace making them all the more loathed. They were horribly corrupt and the populace resented this...definite comparison to modern western governments. Though, the left can't take credit for this alone. Just because conservatives don't sport bandanas and anti-bush/kerry posters doesn't mean we're not peeved. The left simply see their ideologies collapsing, whereas conservatives see Everything collapsing.

3. New takes on Christianity came with the barbarians, previously to be considered heresy. Like it or not, the West is based on Christendom and the virtues it extolled. But the difference here is that religion was indeed preserved, whereas in the modern west it is being systematically cut away. Perhaps Islam will replace Christianity as the new religion, or perhaps it will be wiped out...i can't figure this one out. But its implications i feel are much more serious than Romes.

I've got more, but i need to do some more thinking and comparisons, otherwise it'll just come out as babble.

... ok, but what I am looking for is what kind of training, then RITES do we have to prepare kids for being an intelligent citizen... ? Able to think critically? Educated and willing to stand up ...

Ok, I think I follow Herc. Let me turn down my jackass level.

As a culture, I do not think "we" have one. And that is as broad as most of WEstern culture. And I am thinking as it stands now, that is not such a bad thing, because in some respects, the folks who call us names aint that far off the mark in calling US the great satan.

If we had a uniformally mass common value/culture I don't think most of us would like what it contained. Some pretty bad stuff is pretty common in our culture, and that became the common ethos . . . . whew, no place to run, no place to hide.

As far as small groups and individuals, my bias is the book of Proverbs as a start. That is an excellent training device in ethics and responsible behavior for young men (and women). That was what Solomon developed it for.

It even starts . . . .

THE proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
4 To give subtlety to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
9 For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.
10 My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.

Baby girl and me (and number #2, due later this month) are going to spend some SERIOUS daddy time reading that stuff together. Dick and Jane reader my butt. Quality stuff on this dinner table.

But that is only a start. Like you guys were saying farming, ranching (and most other family business) can be great training tools, as well. Started into family farming myself at 14. Pretty good life lessons. Think it will be the same for my kids. They want college money? They are going to earn in the family business.

It seems the kids who are really screwed are the ones who are born into defective family value systems. But that is a whole other topic.[/code]