Restorative Justice

[Sully]

That is a good question bongo, not sure if I can answer it but it got me away from a downward spiral of drink (for all) petty crime (for all) and drugs (for some). Is there something you'd like to share my friend?

gash I remember someone whose name begins with Sue and ends with Lawley getting a shoeing in Magaluff/Parma from the police. He was on his own and I spied this from the bar I was comfortably esconced in. I intervened, in a polite way, only to get a shoeing myself as a cocked pistol was pointed at my head (thereby limiting my range of responses)and the aforementioned Lawley staggered merrily on his way Cheers easy

Contractor, there is no class distinction in this day and age. Officers are there purely on merit

[Andy O'Pray]

Sully,

I knew Jimmy Boyle. On release, some of his upstanding mates tried to chop his arms off, unsuccessfully unfortunately, plus cost the taxpayer a fortune to put him together again. I in no way am defending the criminal of yesteryear, I am only pointing out that they knew the consequences of their actions and were prepared to face them. Your reformed Jimmy Boyle was the one who put an axe through an ex girlfriends skull, who happened to be a friend of my wife's. When Boyle wrote his book, via someone who could write, he was in his 60's. He is now in his 80's and very vulnerable. He grew up a piece of crap, lived his life as a piece of crap and will die a piece of crap.

As for the comments as to how many RM's could have gone down the road to crime if they had not joined up. If I had started down that road my old man would have kicked ten different colours of sh@t out of me, not even an option.

Aye - Andy.

[Sully]

Andy, fair comment about Jimmy Boyle (although I didn't know him and never felt drawn to him to be honest). I read the book and thought he was a nobber but was impressed that he turned his back on it all and with the work he was doing with young offenders. I wasn't aware that he committed any crimes after his release from his long stint in Barlinnie in the late 70's and after he started his sculpture and wrote his book or whatever he got up to. If he attacked the young lady before he was put away then I can't see what point you're making about his reformation.

[Andy O'Pray]

Sully,

The only reason that Boyle turned his back on crime was that he was a target of other criminals and he became vulnerable, because of age. Growing up in Glasgow as a young lad, one did not piss around with Boyle, as one knew of the consequences. In my mature years I now see him as the piece of scum that he has always been. Had he been executed in the 70's, a lot of people would have led far happier lifes.

Aye - Andy.

[Andy O'Pray]

Loz,

I am now in my 60's and Boyle was much older than I. When his girlfriend ended up in the Southern General Hospital. Glagow, my wife was a 20 year old nurse and she reckons that boyle was about 40 years of age then.

My doesn't time fly.

Aye - Andy.

[Sully]

Loz, that's awful, I really hope you're through the worst of it now mate - I don't know how I'd cope with the same situation.

My point about Kev, and I apologise to Wully for losing my rag a bit, was that he shouldn't assume that because I have a different view on the solution that I haven't been affected by crime (that was just one incident - but I still feel the same as you about it). I didn't say anything or make any promises at the funeral but I laid awake a few nights thinking of what I could do about it all and how I'd be letting him down if I didn't do anything. I really hope that 'something' is done but that's not the same as advocating some kind of policy. I suppose what would be best is for those who did it to fully realise what they have done to Dawn and Olivia and Kev's family and to spend the rest of their lives in remorse. I admit that I'm not strong enough to wish for that, I wish a painful end for them.

At the end of the day, though, if the world was governed by 'an eye for an eye' we'd all be blind and toothless. Unfulfilled vengence is a nasty emotion that eats away at and destroys the bearer.

On a lighter note, I wish I had a tape of the defence barrister likening me to Atilla the Hun's older and nastier brother just because I'd been in the Corps - "but you don't even know me..." thinks I - worth a laugh

[Andy O'Pray]

Hi Loz,

When I was going out with, the now wife, I lived in Tollcross, really Auchenshuggle, but as we could not spell Auchenshuggle we just said Tollcross. My wife lived in Penilee, so when the bus/trams stopped running, I had to walk through the Gorbals, Bridgeton, Parkhead to get to Tollcross. Nae problem.

When I am next talking to my brother in law, who is in the know, I will ask him if Boyle is still alive. My brother in law is a friend of one of Boyle's ex girlfriends husband. Can you get your mind around that, I sure can't.

Aye - Andy

[Maria]

I must whole heartedly applaud the posts from Sully and Gash.

My father grew up in the Gorbals with Jimmy Boyle, and yes Boyle did live his life as a piece of crap. I would go so far as to say that my father wasn’t exactly an angel and his early life was lived as a piece of crap too (nothing on the scale of Boyle). However, by the time Boyle was arrested in 1967? my father had been encouraged to take another path and was already serving in the armed forces (he did 17 years and was medically discharged). Had it not been for the fact that there was someone willing to help youngsters like my father get out of the gangland culture then maybe my father and many others like him would not have had a chance to find out what a decent life was, to make one for himself and really give something back to society.

I have never hugged a tree in my life and there is nothing red dripping from my heart but there is absolutely no sense in tarring everyone with the same brush and shouting ‘lock them up and throw away the key’. Some can be rehabilitaed and go on to live a reformed life. As far as I am aware Boyle was 60 this year and is now living about twelve miles from me, has never committed any crime since leaving Bar-L and is still successfully working with young offenders.

[Andy O'Pray]

Sully,

You can't be Atilla the Hun's older brother, I am.

Aye - Andy.

[Andy O'Pray]

Maria,

I dispute that Boyle has just turned 60. I am 61 and Boyle was older than I. I have just asked my mother in law and she says that Boyle is older than 60. I will not name names on this site, as it could cause embarassment to some people, plus I cannot afford the law suits, but I will get a deffinative answer for you, as I still know people who know Boyle.

Aye - Andy.

[Andy O'Pray]

Loz,

I was last back in Glasgow about 19 years ago, just prior to my father dying of cancer. He was receiving treatment at Belvadere Hospital ( spelling). My mother was a health freak and never gave my father anything that may be bad for him, albeit he loved a fry up. My wife used to take him to the said cafe for his sausage, egg, bacon and ham fry up.

Aye - Andy.

[Artist]

Loz

I still reckon you look like Suzzie from the Banshies.

I lived in that part of the world where Punch ups and broken bottles ruled. Union Street Guz. It made I grow up one night when I went into the heads of the "Two Trees" and saw this bloke flat out covered in blood with the bloke who had done the deed putting his knife away. (the bloke died) The insigater of the incident just looked at me and said "Eff off Royal, or your next" I effed off. (at the time I was 18, straight out of the box)

I had this sudden thought that this was going to happen again and again. (It did)

But it is getting away from the point. Justice comes in many forms, but justice seems to favour the offender at the moment. Which I think is wrong. Public humilation at an early age may (don't hold your breath) deter the idiots from embarking on a life of crime.

Nowadays it may not happen. But the rules have to be changed. Because the legal system at the moment is a big JOKE to those who abuse it. And a big minus to those who are effected by it. i.e. The poor sod who is the is the recipient of the crime.

As a kid I lived in a nice little world of "peace" Dad was in the RAF so we lived On RAF camps. No aggro A little bit of Utopia in fact. That to some who were brought up in the other world may seem trite, but I grew up dead quick after the Green Lid. I saw things that I never want to see again. So I like to think that I am not some Moron with the "hang em high" attitude. Been their done that/witnessed that etc, etc,

That is my attidude. ifen it is not to your liking well........I do not care.


Artist

[Sully]

You can't be Atilla the Hun's older brother, I am

So I've heard Andy

[gash-hand]

Sully, Maria,

Thanks for the support.

I don't think there's ever going to be any meeting ground between the two camps though.

Whats the fu*king point of this forum?

It seems that no matter how well a point is argued/reasoned some are just not willing to entertain the fact that there may be a way other than their own personal view on things.

This in itself wouldn't be so bad but when in their obvious frustration to have everyone agree with them they resort to their 'life experiences' and 'how would you feel' scenarios - obviously assuming that the only bad things in life have ever happened to them and no one else, especially the person who is offering the alternative option. As I have previously said I find this quite insulting, its like a 'only I really know' attitude, instantly dismissing anyone else's experiences as 'not worthy'.

I guess as most are ex-SNCO's they are used to having their own way and talking down so called junior ranks. Isn't it time you woke up and realised that you've left the Corps - the worlds moved on, my opinion counts as much as yours now, and just mabay mine might have some value as well.

As has been posted by others of this forum this derogratory attitude has driven some members away. I myself am filled with a sense of rage in how certain posters have been treated on this subject. But perhaps the biggest loss is that to yourselves - by blindly refusing to give an alternative option even the scantist consideration you are closing yourself off from learing something new - although as SNCO's you probably don't feel you need to learn anything anymore.

I have taken part in several discussions/arguments on various subjects mainly as a member of Mensa and through my work as an IT consultant - this is the first time though that I have suffered such longstanding experiences regarding derogratory treatment of difffering views.

I have decided to leave this forum, to be honest I have far better things to do than put up with this type of attitude - especially from people who generally don't even qualify their statements but meerly use 'high impact' phrases - if you really want an open and fair minded forum then I suggest some of you open up yourselves to the fact that your opinions may not be right and someone else just may have a valid point.

Endex.

[Contractor]

gash,

I doubt if I will be able to dissuade you from your decision to leave but please reconsider.

As a relatively new member to this forum I find your posts not only extremely well expressed and structured but they also give forum members the opportunity to view matters from a different and well-argued perspective. Vital in my view.

You probably have a valid point with regard to many of the members not wishing to change their opinions on matters or be swayed by your arguments but this is always the case in debate. Stick with it gash please.

I fall into the category of being an ex WO and used to getting 'my own way' but I would like to think I am receptive to a good and well balanced argument. If at the end of the day I don't agree with the other person, fair enough, but how boring it would be if everybody agreed with each other.

So I hope it isn't Endex gash, I for one thoroughly enjoy your posts and believe your leaving would be a loss, plus you have the knack of expressing many of my feelings far more eloquently than I ever could

Aye, Tony