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Who areyou calling gulible? It was you lot who elected Bush and believed the post 9/11 hype. personaly I was in favour of the war and removing Sadam, but the US should be honest about the reasons. Also, we would not have half the problems we have in the Middle East if it were not for the US constantly backing Israel.

Guys this thread is superb, I did not have any real grasp of how complicated the situation is.

Still on topic I think, just how far are we away from someone just saying fug it and pushing the button, if Bush was to suddenly decide that this was the way forward then does he really have the the ultimate power?

Surely nuclear strikes are out of the question for countries like the UK/USA, I am not a not a tree hugger and I believe in the defence of the realm etc, but are tactical nuclear strikes not tactical genocidal strikes?

Out of interest read this link about John Kerry and the war in Iraq.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/aug20 ... -a24.shtml


Mitty

No, strategic nuclear strikes are "genocidal", but inefficient for total genocide. A lot surrvived Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

dootybooty wrote:Who areyou calling gulible? It was you lot who elected Bush and believed the post 9/11 hype. personaly I was in favour of the war and removing Sadam, but the US should be honest about the reasons. Also, we would not have half the problems we have in the Middle East if it were not for the US constantly backing Israel.

Maybe its just me, but it sure seems like a fad around here for the brits to shit on Israel all the time. It always slips into posts, even where it isn't warranted.

Looking back Britain are just as responsible as America for the current situation. All the faulse treaties and agreements etc. But i can see how many british people today dislike or are unsuportive of the Israel's because Israel is portrayed by the media in this country as the agressors. However in the U.S there are a large number of influencial jews. This is why the public and U.S government is very supportive of the Israel's. Its interesting but a rather complicated situation that i cant see being resolved for a long long time.

If all world leaders just sat and had a pint together, I think the world could be made a much better place. Then again, the muslims don't drink, so would just have to sit sulking with a bag of crisps. And Israel would be too tight to get a round in, then off we'd go with the conflicts again!
There, that's my tuppence worth. What was a serious thread has now been ruined. Nice one, Bart. I'll just leave quietly..

THIS IS FOR SNYDER


Snyder,
You really do get on my tits.....I know that I am not the only person who feels this way. You are dragging this Forum down with your bitchiness and back biting and I for one will NOT tolerate it anymore.
You have had several hints from people to tone it down and wind your neck in somewhat, and for all your brains you don't seem to have grasped that.

I was so sick to death of reading the shyte that spouts from your fingers, that last night I very nearly wrapped my hand in.
Why the fark should I let some jumped up, egotistical gobshyte send me packing from a place that I like to think of as "home"??? Exactly, I shouldn't, which is why I'm not only offering you one of these.....

WARNING NUMBER 1


but also one of these...............

WARNING NUMBER 2


One more and you can kiss your sorry ass goodbye on this Forum.

I for one won't tolerate the "retard" trip that you seem to enjoy so much. You might think that just because you have Mensa behind you that you are superior to others, but wake up to yourself....theres more to life and living than having more than 2 brain cells to rub together.

I don't get out of my box very often but when I do, whoever it is that has annoyed the shyte out of me knows about it.

Snyder you get my vote for "Pain in the Arse of the Year"

Now play nice, or fcuk off

Maybe its just me, but it sure seems like a fad around here for the brits to shit on Israel all the time. It always slips into posts, even where it isn't warranted.[/quote]
Redhand, it is impossible to discuss the problems of the middle east rationaly without including Israel's part in the equation. While respecting the fact that Israel is the only true democracy in that part of the world it's oppression of the Palestinians is one of the causes of muslim fundementalism. Remember in Gulf War 1 Sadam targeted Israel with his scuds.Realpolitik must include Israel in any debate on the Middle East. Its not just the Brits droping on Israel, its most of the rest of the world these days, with the exception of the USA.

Cliodna wrote:THIS IS FOR SNYDER


Snyder,
You really do get on my tits.....I know that I am not the only person who feels this way. You are dragging this Forum down with your bitchiness and back biting and I for one will NOT tolerate it anymore.
You have had several hints from people to tone it down and wind your neck in somewhat, and for all your brains you don't seem to have grasped that.

I was so sick to death of reading the shyte that spouts from your fingers, that last night I very nearly wrapped my hand in.
Why the fark should I let some jumped up, egotistical gobshyte send me packing from a place that I like to think of as "home"??? Exactly, I shouldn't, which is why I'm not only offering you one of these.....

WARNING NUMBER 1


but also one of these...............

WARNING NUMBER 2


One more and you can kiss your sorry ass goodbye on this Forum.

I for one won't tolerate the "retard" trip that you seem to enjoy so much. You might think that just because you have Mensa behind you that you are superior to others, but wake up to yourself....theres more to life and living than having more than 2 brain cells to rub together.

I don't get out of my box very often but when I do, whoever it is that has annoyed the shyte out of me knows about it.

Snyder you get my vote for "Pain in the Arse of the Year"

Now play nice, or fcuk off

Here Here Cliodna - Snyder you must have really wound Clio up she is a really nice lady, very kind. You are an intelligent person its not fair to make fun of retarded people, they did not choose to be so.

Mitty

Edited: with note to self, take a breath before swinging the bat.

Edwards159 wrote:Looking back Britain are just as responsible as America for the current situation. All the faulse treaties and agreements etc. But i can see how many british people today dislike or are unsuportive of the Israel's because Israel is portrayed by the media in this country as the agressors. However in the U.S there are a large number of influencial jews. This is why the public and U.S government is very supportive of the Israel's. Its interesting but a rather complicated situation that i cant see being resolved for a long long time.

True true edwards but...

I mentioned this on another thread somewhere else. I was watching a show on Global News here in Canada about BBC coverage regarding the conflict.

BBC were the ones who made up blatant lies about a supposed massacre in Jenin. The 'massacre' has been something that proponents of the palestinian 'struggle' had been using for quite some time as 'evidence' of Israels overall attitude.

Several major UK newspapers printed the story with headlines such as 'horrific as holocaust' and what not. That's not exact, but those were the spirit of those headlines.

and guess what? It was since proven by the UN (of all people!) that infact only 29 bodies could be unearthed and proven as civillian casualties. The Guardian, Mirror, all of em...were reporting body counts in excess of 500.

Global News went to BBC headquarters and questioned them. The BBC guy essentially said they could retract but it would be pointless now. So there you have it, the media pushes a story, gets the 'point' across and opinions have been formed.

So it leaves the question 'why?'. Imo, i think you've got idealogues running your news services convincing otherwise fair and balanced minds that Israel is the next nazi regime.

I think the same is true for the rest of Europe. My country was always very supportive of Israel as well. Partly that is also some feeling of guilt left from WW2, where the countries of Europe let the holocaust happen in some ways. That's why Israel was founded in the first place. I think now the situation has changed. Israel is a powerful country, no longer in need of our support. The Palestinian people are generally poor, and have as much a right to their own country as the Israeli's did 60 years ago. The Palestinians were screwed over by their Arab "friends" as much as they were by the west. The agreement is pretty much there, Gaza and the West Bank for the Palestinians, and the rest of the country for Israel. And I believe the Jewish settlers should leave Gaza and the West Bank as well. The wall is fine by me, as long as it is build on the border, and not 2 miles inside Palestinian territory.

I think the problem with British media is that they don't give you the news but there opinion on it-whether it's right or wrong, thankfully most people can see through the crap and form there own opinions but some people still read The Sun (for instance) to see whats going on in the world.

wholley wrote:Contradicting yourself there.
Bush did think that Iraq might have nuclear weapons,
so he invaded.

He did not believe that Iraq had nuclear weapons, but that they might be trying to acquire them. This was based on intelligence that Saddam had tried to buy uranium from an African country, a claim which turned out to be false. If Iraq did have nuclear weapons then Bush would have not even considered invading, because a nuclear equiped Iraq would have been a biger enough deterrent. Bush claimed that Iraq had chemical and biological weapons left over from the 80s and that Iraq was building more. The pre war intelligence was poor and based upon lies from Iraqi exiles and informers.

In my opinion Bush and Blair had no reliable intelligence but were unconcerned, because they believed that findings after the invasion would justify the war. In other words, they invaded a country in the hope that it was a threat and that they did not believe that it was a threat in the first place. Now that WMDs have not been found, ovcourse, Bush and Blair have changed thier reasons for going to war time and time again (links with al Qaeda, Saddam's history, genocide, etc).

Ive said it before and ill say it again - 70% of the American public believed that Saddam was part of 9/11, therefore Bush's failure to remove him from power would have resulted in his own political suicide, especially if the US was attacked again whiich seemed very likely at the time. In other words - the US gets attacked with Saddam still in power, the US public will immediately blames him and blame Bush for being soft on terrorists.

The plight of Iraq since 1991, militarily and economically, the prize of oil control and the Bush family's personal hatred of Saddam also played a part in Iraq's selection as an American target.

O.K., folks, there have been enough complaints to make me realize that this isn't working. So here's what I'm going to do. First off, once I post this I'm going to take two weeks off from this forum. Hopefully, that will allow tempers to cool, mine as well as yours. Secondly, you'll never see the word "retard" or any synonyms emanate from my keyboard. I have changed my signature as well. I have a couple of retarded nephews. I should have known better than to use that word here, and I do apologize for it. My apology is sincere and without reservation. I was wrong. Thirdly, when I do come back I'm going to restrict the frequency of my postings here to something significantly less than they have been.

I'll be back in September and then we'll see how it goes. Some of you have your grievances, and I have a few points of dissatisfaction as well. The main one being that I see a fair number of comments equally pointed as mine that don't seem to be challenged by mods or anyone else; it's my responses that are challenged, and that strikes me as unfair. But life is unfair, and in any community there are modes of expression and lines of thought that are more welcome than others. In any case, I'm not the kind to stalk off of an Internet forum in a huff, so rather than "tell you" off I am inclined to take a pause and then give it one last shot.

Frankly, I have always been much more interested in the military history, books and so forth, and am somewhat disappointed that there's so little activity on that part of this site. I have hoped to learn a lot more than I have here. I also was disappointed to have gotten so little response to my posting about the potential vulnerability of the telecom system to an attack. This is a subject I know a fair amount about, but it drew little comment here. Not that it's anyone's "fault," but it's something that I've noticed. So, if this is a "serious" forum I'm all in favor of being serious. If it's a place to debate the issues of the day, I think I'm well equipped there, too.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. See you in September.