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Doc wrote: 1) why did God pick 30(ish) BC to send his Son down to us? I mean theres worse things happened since. Was he sent to save the Jews because that would piss the Muslims off abit. And he didnt really save the Jews because he spawned a whole new religion that assisted in the persicution of the Jews. Also the Church then went on the rampage for over a millenium killing anyone who disagreed with their version of events. Including rural people still worshipping the turnip (still happens in parts of Wales!) So Jesus pitches up in Heavens lounge and I can imagine God saying "oh for fark sake that backfired! You aint going down there again!"

3) If God is all knowing etc etc and Jesus did pitch up to save mankind why didnt he pick any year between 1930 and 1945 when millions were being slaughtered? Oh hang on that was our doing and mankinds fate. SO what was so special in 30BC?

I'll answer these two together since they're the same!

The Bible doesn't say anything about why God chose that time for Christ coming to Earth. There are probably many different factors, but here's my take. Up until that time what we know as the Old Testament had been revealed followed by a period of silence. Now, I think it can be shown that God's purpose thus far was to teach humanity many things about life and God - things like justice, righteousness, sin, love, the nature of humanity etc. etc. To do so He made use of some culture and formats of the time - temple religion and so on - however we should note that the lessons transcended the framework (or were intended to).

When Christ came it was at a time that Rome was dominating Israel and not long after Christ Rome would destroy the Jewish Temple. I think God chose to move at that time because He would be able to set up His Church - that His a body of faithful followers in a setting where they wouldn't be distracted or misdirected by framework. No longer could the focus on one building or upon ritualistic practise. Instead, Jesus placed the emphasis where it was supposed to be - upon the people. Building and ritual didn't matter - people did - loving people, becoming a family, caring for one another, providing, protecting, etc. And that's how the Church started - with groups of believers who met together, shared their food, belongings, and did whatever was needed to meet one another's needs and simple show love.

As far as the Jews are concerned, there are books of the New Testament which speak about their salvation coming 'after the time of the Gentiles' -that is, when God has finished with His work amongst the rest of us, His attention will swing back around to the Jews and their salvation. I find it quite astounding that such a small and persectued people have maintained their culture and identity for thousands of years where other giant civilisations have fallen. As far as Christians persecuting the Jews and going on crusades I'd say two things. Firstly, such is what happens when people decide for themselves what it is God wants and 'make their own religion'. It is a sad story and obviously not exemplary. However I would also say that what we see there was largely influenced not by God or His religion but by the usual - politics and the push for power. When Constantine decided to unite Church and state he then made the Church a political and governmental power and would thereby open it up as a target for those who sought power. So it we see through history those who have no faith seeking power in 'the church'. Men who do not God speaking out in His name to achieve their own ends.

2) why did he have to resurect himself before going? Wasnt all his acts of divinity enough without getting sealed in a cave and then not being there when his oppos went alooking?

In Jesus we see two things - His humanity and His divinity. Primarily I like to focus upon His humanity because Christ was not only the Saviour but the perfect example of a man walking closely with God. He was the fore-runner - recon almost! The Bible talks about sin entering through one man - Adam - but now salvation and redemption coming through one man Jesus - the new Adam. So, just as Adam sinning and dieing became a fore-runner for all men after, Christ came to be the new fore-runner paving the new path for those who would follow Him - and that path, being carved by His death, then lead on to resurrection - the path all believers would follow after Him. What's more, God proved His total supremacy - even over death.

4) Theres no doubt most most mainstream religions quote Jesus as a great person including the Muslims and Jews, but what swept mankind following his death that made christianity right and everyone else wrong?

Christianity offers a living Saviour who ran as a fore-runner, and also paid a price to bring salvation. Most other religions preach salvation through one's own religious behaviour, in addition their prophets or leaders are...well, dead.

5) The Pope?? whats that all about then? Catholics do their thing and in fairness christianity is so loose that if you dont agree you just form a branch with its own rules.

The idea behind the Pope is that the disciple and Apostle Peter was the head of the Church appointed by Christ. He was then supposed to choose a successor and so and so forth. The Papal tradition is supposed to carry this on - the line of headship from Peter. Eventually through Constantine, mentioned before, the church got tied with government and a lot of corruption entered the church. Eventually Martin Luther came along - a Roman Catholic monk who looked around him and disgusted with the corruption, money-making, and other such things challenged the church that it was wrong. Therefore it is said he is the father of Protestantism. The idea was to break away from the corruptions of the Roman Catholic church back then.

It has to be said that since Vatican II the Roman Catholic church is something of a different organisation than back them, although enmity still exists in places between the Protestants and Catholics. Those caught up in that need to check themselves and their behaviour against the teachings of Christ - His preaching was towards love between brothers and even enemies, not disunity.

It is true that there are many, many offshoots these days. A lot aren't too different, some are. My personal stance is to move towards greater unity, I believe that is our example and command.

I underline the fact that I aint having a go here about religion, but I am having a stab at organised religion that appears to have no real bearing on the preaching of Jesus. The church has always been corrupt as an organisation and that goes for all branches.

If God is everywhere then I'll pray on the bog every morning, wouldnt do curling one down on the front pew now would it.

Understood. Not a bad practise, guarantees you'll pray every day! Church corruption is a real thorn in the foot. I'd have to say that there were and are times that the Church or churches are free from corruption, however, they have never been free from the fact that those who make them up - Christians - are faulty people just like everyone else. We make mistakes.

Among many other problems with religion, God and the Bible, I've always thought the most obvious idiocy displayed by (otherwise intelligent) followers with a literal belief in the Bible and the existence of God is this:

If incest is a sin, how did Adam and Eve engender the human race?*

Surely that one example (there are others, but they are more philosophical, that is direct contradiction from the pages of the Bible) is enough for smart people to see the holes in the Biblical story?

Another favourite is in response to the idea of free will, which is generally used as a riposte to the popular 'Why does God allow bad things to happen' question (answer: because people and things have been given 'free will', which allows them to do bad stuff, but PS they go to hell). However...

If God is omnipotent, thus could create the world and man exactly as he wanted, and also omniscient, thus could see every event exactly throughout time, a) why didn't he do it differently, and b) how can any of his creations have free will? As an exercise in cause and effect, God must have created the world in the full knowledge that, for example, Adam would eat the apple (and all subsequent sins), so how can we be responsible for our actions? Furthermore, considering that God has both knowledge of all bad events, and is actually responsible for them as creator, why are we worshipping such a sadist? Are the entire population of the Christian, Orthodox and Jewish churches engaged in some global, religious version of the Nuremberg rallies, or am I missing something?

If you can solve any of those questions for me Galant, you are a class A genius

* For those not up on their Bible study, the given answer is that Cain married a woman who mysteriously appears from, and I shit you not, the land of Nod. But this, of course, begs the question; so who bloody created her?. For those not up on their religious scholarship, the scholars answer is that Adam and Eve are not meant to be the literal founders of the human race, but of the house of Israel - thus the mysterious appearance of others outside their family to be wives and so on, and the lack of explanation, they exist symbolically to show the seperation of the chosen people and the rest of us heathens. As the Old Testament became appropriated by Christians, however, this vital fact became lost, result being lots of slightly dim Americans believing that God literally created the Earth, Adam and Eve were his first and only human creations, ignoring the glaring contradiction a few pages later, and then having a go at Darwin for having holes in his theory. I ask you...

This could go on forever, there are many, many questions, and I doubt people want this to turn into a Bible answer forum. I know I don't!

I will however throw a couple out for you. First of all I'd like to ask a question. What do you do when you come up against a problem that seems to have no answer or seems to put a block in the way something bigger that you heading towards? Do you give up at the first sight? This being a military forum and in the RM sections - when you're faced against something challenging do you turn and walk the other way? No, you keep thinking, you keep looking, because you know that you might have missed something, that there could well be a way around it. Is this dishonest? Is it the practise of those who refuse to admit the truth?

When it comes to God and the Bible, you're dealing with a very complex subject and no one person has all the answers. This is by no means meant as argumentative, but is simply something to think about for the many people who come up against problems in the idea of God or the Bible. Just because no-one you've met has the answer doesn't mean there isn't one - maybe you're the one who will find it. Take it as a challenge, not an excuse.

Now, as for the freewill problem here's a view you may not have come across. Does the future exist? Yes? Then one has to wonder about freewill if everything is laid out. However, what if it doesn't? The present exists, the past did but doesn't but the future does not.

Now, looking at omnipotence, a better understanding might be to say that God knows everything that can be known, He doesn't know the future in the way most think He does because it doesn't exist yet, it cannot be known. However He does know everything there is to know about the past and about the present, and what's more He knows every possibility of the future. He knows the odds, He knows the variables. What's more, He can creatively intervene in the present and make plans for the future. If this is the case, then we all have freewill to make our own decisions, as we make choices, and as options reduce it becomes very easy for God to predict things, and then there are those things that God just makes happen. Thus, when He speaks of the future, He can do so because He can influence which timeline might come to pass and what events might happen. How that affects freewill is too complicated to address, it's a case by case basis.

Also, one small thought about suffering, and this isn't meant to belittle it. Perspective. Sometimes things which seem awful in the moment, can pale away with time. Good things in the future can almost sweep away things of the past. If there is a life after this life, and it is an eternal one, these 70 years become a drop in the ocean. If God is just, and allows awful things to happen at the hands of men or whatever, can we not trust His judgment that when seen in a different light, He will see things come right? Just a thought.

Regards.

Galant, thankyou for your replies. Good to see a man who is as strong as his word. Still not convinced this end, but I also dont wish to be convinced. Im worshipping the turnip!

Joking aside theres no denying Jesus exsisted and that he did divine things. But you mentioned the bible, the root of the church, its manual for operations so to speak. A divine book? Nope, written by men, centuries past Jesus' death, selective and in no doubt through a millenium of translation somewhat removed from the original copy.

Constantine backed the winning horse in christianity and included paganism to aplease the masses. Strange the people who killed Jesus became the founders of the church and sought to expand christianity. And going against the bibles own teachings slaughtered anyone who disagreed.
Personally I think the Jews thought about creating a splinter group to avert Romes gaze and whilst the new religion got some grief the Jews caught their breath. But the new religion flourished under Romes guidance of all people and the Jews got abit miffed. But if it hadnt been for christianity would the Jews have survived? I for one think this is doubtfull.

I have never doubted the exsistance of God (or Jesus), God exsists and Jesus was a powerful follower and influencer.

I dont doubt the church, no doubts in my mind at all on the church....its a load of shit!

As the church weakens so does the strength of man, in some ways false bonds are being released and man is venturing forward with Gods greatest gift..freewill, a will that has been supressed for centuries under the guise of organised religion. If God put us here to spend all our time seeking forgiveness for sins and praying to him, why didnt he just keep us elsewhere or bother creating us at all. I quote the film constantine "God is a child with a ant farm"

If I were God and were to meet a priest at the pearly gates I would question what he did for 70 years apart from suck up to me. I put you down there to get on with life not spend it brown nosing your God who you would see in the end anyway.

Catholics are dodgy as fark in my eyes, I lived in Bavaria, one of the strongest areas for catholics in Europe if not the world, theres a church every 3 feet and a bank holiday for a saint every 4 minutes. Christ on the cross is everywhere even atop the peaks on the Alps.

Christianity was delivered to Bavaria by Jock Monks, and Bavaria then flamed the fires of another powerful sect that ruled and killed millions...NAZIs. So in the foothold of one of the catholic churches greatest domains, the destroyer of the world and the Jews rose to power.
And before anyone says Hitler was nt Bavarian but was Austrian, Austria is historically part of Bavaria as is most of the alps and northern Italy.

I guess if we believe the bible and the church, where goes God, swiftly tails the devil.

Thanks for the compliment. I wont debate you, I'll just say I understand and also disagree on a few points.

Have you ever come across a Mr. Oswald Chambers, you might like him: http://www.rbc.org/utmost/

He was a chaplain to the British Commonwealth troops in Egypt during World War I.

Regards.

Doc, Jesus loves you...

...but Allah thinks you're a c**t

sneaky beaky wrote: "Thou will not kill" -

"Thou Shall not Kill"Is the way it was originaly spelled,Once it had been interpreted in several different languages.
I too am a Christian,I also carry a gun as part of my job.
I don't have a problem with killing when justifiable.
My nightmares do however.

Sully wrote:Doc, Jesus loves you...

...but Allah thinks you're a c**t

new keyboard!!!!!!!

Sully wrote:
...but Allah thinks you're a c**t

Doc....
Well at least someone is thinking about you
One liner stuff activated

And those things Allah is thinking about are useful!!! I likes them anyway, not sure about some of you, closet door anyone

Lets all hold hands and sing:

Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.
Though my heart is non to true.
O Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.
Even though I think I followed though!

He says that he will always guide me.
Regardless of what I say or do.
O jesus wants me for a sunbeam.
And a farking good Sunbeam I will Beeeeee!!!!

(Words may not be 100% correct)

42CDORM's Padre was seen to hide his head and cry tears of laughter when he heard us singing this little gem when faced by a hundred plus rioters in NI!! By heck it confused the hell out of the Locals an all!

Artist

singing that in front of rioters, thats top class