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By “due process” I meant Iraqi process, not Old Bailey standards, m`learned friend.

...hmmm so by "due" process you mean Iraqi process which can't be described as "due" in any civilised sense at all You did it to me/my friend so I'll do it to you works in the playground (sometimes) my friend but I'm not so sure it's usefulness goes far beyond that.

I remember your opposition well and that of many others on this site, that's not in issue. Neither is your support of our troops in question and I hope you're not suggestion that mine is?

Here's an example of some of the opposition from before the invasion:

viewtopic.php?p=18083&highlight=haq#18083

Sadly, there's not so much of that type of discussion now with Rob, Andy and Dave not getting involved anymore and Sisyphus posting only now and again. Incidentally, have a look at the obituray of Abdul Haq linked in my post. Heckmatyar is one of the main players now opposing 'allied' troops in Helmand. Can't we learn anything?

What draws me to this discussion is the fact that everybody seems to think this was a Bad Thing - even the Iraqi prosecution representative (who threatened to leave) and the Iraqi government ffs Yet there are people on here who seem to think that it was ok. These things have their consequences and that's what I'm thinking about. They have their consequences for the people we support and whom some of us know well and care about (or are owed a few wets by )

I remember the reaction on here to the nutting of that Brazillian fella, remember that? That went well didn't it

I honestly couldn't care less whether Saddam lived or died, it doesn't affect my life directly - I don't travel around London that often now. But I know families whose loved ones are a bit closer to the firing line than me and peurile baying for blood and calls for the matching of attrocities over here does them no favours given the lack of logistical and political support given to them.

Finally,

Those cruel, heartless bastards.

may or may not have been cruel heartless bastards but one thing seems for sure and that is that they were supporters of Moqtada Al Sadr. You do know who he is don't you? And how much British blood does he have on his hands?

Other than that mucker I fully agree with you

Can we have some more tree hugging/lefty/pc posts I just think a bit more thinking and research and a little less baying would be nice.

...and another thing....

On the point about learning anything, have a look at this from Wikipedia:

Between December 25th, 1979 and February 15th 1989 a total of 620,000 soldiers served with the forces in Afghanistan (though there were only 80,000-104,000 force at one time in Afghanistan). 525,000 in the Army, 90,000 with border troops and other KGB sub-units, 5,000 in independent formations of MVD Internal Troops and police. A further 21,000 personnel were with the Soviet troop contingent over the same period doing various white collar or manual jobs.

The total irrecoverable personnel losses of the Soviet Armed Forces, frontier and internal security troops came to 14,453. Soviet Army formations, units and HQ elements lost 13,833, KGB sub units lost 572, MVD formations lost 28 and other ministries and departments lost 20 men. During this period 417 servicemen were missing in action or taken prisoner; 119 of these were later freed, of whom 97 returned to the USSR and 22 went to other countries.

There were 469,685 sick and wounded, of whom 53,753 or 11.44%, were wounded, injured or sustained concussion and 415,932 (88.56%) fell sick. A high proportion of casualties were those who fell ill. This was because of local climatic and sanitary conditions, which were such that acute infections spread rapidly among the troops. There were 115,308 cases of infectious hepatitis, 31,080 of typhoid fever and 140,665 of other diseases. Of the 11,654 who were discharged from the army after being wounded, maimed or contracting serious diseases, 92%, or 10,751 men were left disabled.

Material losses were as follows:

118 jet aircraft
333 helicopters
147 main battle tanks
1,314 IFV/APCs
433 artillery and mortars
1,138 radio sets and command vehicles
510 engineering vehicles
11,369 trucks and petrol tankers

And on one day in Chechnya (New Year's Eve 1994) the Russians lost between 1,500 (Russian estimate) and 5,000 (Chechen estimate) men.

There you go - two very expensive (for the Russians) lessons that cost us nothing. So what do we do? Think we can do better with fractions of the forces, overstretched logistics and flaky public support for the government's policies there?

Off now....been a slow morning. No sh*t Sherlock.....

Sully
The bleedings hearts comment was not aimed at you,but all those who try to put their own sanitised western way of thinking into the mindset of those who lived under Saddams' regime.
What did people expect to see at his execution?.I'm suprised that there wasn't an official video of the whole thing put out on general release in Iraq so that the people who had to be convinced that he had at last been executed could see it.
Who else could guard him except people who were in opposition to him,couldn't expect his own supporters to do that job!.So jeering at his final moments was to be expected.
Then you get Prescott standing up and saying the whole thing was shameful !,am I missing something there?, isn't he the DPM now and at the time of the invasion,what did he think the outcome was going to be?,surely they were not so nieve as to think everything would run smoothly and by Queensberry rules.
Sully as always your answers/arguements are always articulate and well thought out,and I agree with what you say.I think we all knew the whole thing was going to be a monumental fark up and I still can't believe that succesive goverments both ours and the US don't learn from the past.
Remember the ridicule of the French goverment for not supporting the war,well they got it right,for whatever reason their excuse was for not joining in (maybe they have learned from the past) they don't have to worry about a face saving exercise when it finally comes to trying to get out of that place.
I'm just waitnig for Tony to make his comments on his return from his hols,should be interesting.

A slightly different take on things,those that think that we in England would be above the tormenting of a person about to be executed just imagine this scenario,Ian Huntley is about to be strung up in Trafalger Square.................

SH

Just to put in my two cents.
Neither the British or US Governments had any role in the way Sadman was dealt with.
The Iraqi government had the sole responsibilty for his trial(Yuk Yuk)And his execution.
The little fat fark Pollard,Polack,Preston or whatever his name is will likely get a slap from"Miami Blair"As soon as he can wrench himself away from so many Gibb brothers cute little bums.
Can't wait to hear the"Pop"

Sorry.Me Bad.

Way too serious there Sull, most of my post was taking the piss about dual standards. Like this comment which wouldn`t be out of place in Life of Brian (I thought )

Those cruel, heartless bastards. What were they thinking of, jeering at a hanging. Animals!

Don’t they know you’re only supposed to jeer at a stoning, ffs?

You know I agree with much of what you say, and I`ve made similar points about Afgan before.

Fair shout Shoulders and a good point. I don't mean to throw stones mucker, I'm just a bit worried about all this (after a couple of years of disinterest) I think it's the increasing number of body bags coming home - I think we all are mate. I can't stand up with the lads there so I suppose I just have to shoot my gob off

I used to say that we had a moral duty to sort the place(s) out but maybe we should just get the f**k out of there. Have you noticed that the septics seem less bothered about Afghan (which was somehow responsible for the 19 Saudi's and one other trashing the WTC) than they are with Iraq? Kinda weird

Wholley - you bad

Ok aitch - back in box

BUT IT MAKES ME SO ANGRY

That whale music I got for christmas seems to be doing the trick then Citalopram anybody?

What is often ignored in Afgan is the Pakistani agenda which they have had since pre-CIA days with the Soviets.
The real hero of the piece was this geezer and we lost a real ally when he was topped




Ahmed Shah Massoud, killed by two suicide bombers disguised as cameramen supposedly Talliban. I thind the Pakistanis were probably involved because they wanted their stooge Heckmatyr to be the victor, not Massoud.
Massoud had no agenda other than a free, peacefull and democratic Afgan. The Pakistanis are still there, they haven`t changed
their agenda.
Maybe we should change ours?

By the way, wasn`t Massoud the leader of the Northern Soul Alliance?

I used to love the old Northern Soul at Wigan Cassino,

Harry
Im glad you put a name to that face,otherwise I would have spent all night trying to figure out how Peter Andre got involved with the Taliban


SH

Well bugger me....I looked out for him at the Prestatyn Weekender but didn't see him there. The Castle in Onion Street had a great Northern Alliance night - big fave at RMB.

As you probably know Haq and Massoud copped it within a couple of weeks of each other - outflanked, outmanouvered or what? It seems that the Pakistani intelligence service may have been involved in both? Methinks you have a good point. Now, what's all this about regime change........??? On the other one the Iranians seem to have been busy outflanking us as well.

Bloody hell Shoulders - you're right.........

Duh Duh Duh Duh Doo
Duh Duh Duh Duh Doo
Duh Duh Duh Duh Doo
Insania

Take a look around
At what technology has found
Is it what we need or are we killing the seed
Dictated by the screen
No more following your dreams
The worlds become a difficult place to be

Where are we going
(Does anyone care)
Hold on to real love
There’s so much to share

[Chorus X 2]
Duh Duh Duh Duh Doo
Duh Duh Duh Duh Doo
Duh Duh Duh Duh Doo
This Is Insania

Ageing will reverse
Cloning will diverse
Insanity is slowly creeping into our minds
Where is yesterday
Cos people aint the same
Have we lost the faith or have we lost our minds

Where are we going
Does anyone care
Hold on to real love
There’s so much to share

[Repeat Chorus X 2]

Pray for the time when love will restore
let's kill all the pain let our hearts be the core....
Where are we going
Does anyone care
Hold on to real love
There’s so much to share

Too much Insania as the great man said. I would't mind having a share of his missus though. Don't get me wrong, I don't find her attractive....I.....I ....I just want to CUT HER

Gino Gino Gino

I just googled Massoud, he has a couple of websites detailing his life. He was quite a bloke

I'll have a look - all I can fine at the mo' is "shite bowler"

I said whitewash half way through the WACA Test.
Gutless amateurs
Wasn`t Warney good, btw? Did you see the Parky interview? He`s a right funny farquar