Can the SA80 hack it?

[Boot]

Here's a problem I was just thinking about:

The last time I used the SA80 was in 1998 at the ASE, and I will soon be re-acquainted with it when I start Para training. I've heard the rifle has been much improved since I used it last and can't wait to strip it down for a look-see, especially since I was really un-impressed with it back in 1998 (no offence to Enfield, I'm sure it's much better now)

The problem I foresee with the SA80 is that it will soon be out-classed by emerging technology (especially in the United States). I agree that right now it's one of the best rifles around, rated right up there with the M16A2 and the Steyr AUG, but what about once the OICW becomes the standard infantry weapon of the US forces? What then?
The problem is that the OICW costs around $10,000 to $12,000 per unit, not excluding the extra $25 to $30 per 20mm round! We know the states can offord it (they've already ordered over 45,000 units), but I'm not sure that Britain would spend that amount on a rifle.

For anyone unfamiliar with the OICW:
Alliant Techsystems / Heckler-Koch M29 "Objective Individual Combat Weapon" with an effective range of around 1000 meters at a weight of 6.8kg loaded. Boasts infrared sensors, laser rangefinder and computer fire control system allowing the user to even kill targets hiding behind cover. You cannot hide anywhere, as the computer controlled 20mm high-explosive rounds can be instantly programmed to explode right next to you, or right above or behind you! With the OICW, if you know the 'general' location of your target, you can destroy it.
The first firing model was tested in 1996, and complete units are expected to be integrated into the US steadily between 2005 and 2009.
For more info go to http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/oicw.htm or http://www.hkpro.com/oicw.htm

My question is: Now that we've upgraded the SA80, will we still be using it while other countries adopt super-rifles like the OICW???




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[Tab]

If you check through the web sites that deals with sort thing you will see that most major countries are building there own model of it, that includes the Americans and the Russians even the Japanesse have built a similar weapon. Now why should they buy ours when they have made a copy of it.

[Boot]

Yeah, that's not really what I mean (no offence).

I KNOW the SA80 is the 'forefather' of every bullpup rifle design. I wasn't asking about Britain exporting it to others, I was asking if WE will still be using it, say in 2008, while other countries like the USA will be using the OICW which is a far more devestating weapon which (I hate to say it) will make the SA80 seem like child's play.
I want to know if, since we've just spent all this money upgrading the SA80, will we still be using it while other countries like the USA, Canada, Japan, and Germany will probably have moved on to super-rifles like the OICW???

Just a thought.

[Chapps]

The SA80 is and always will be an overly complicated, heavy, rusting, frail piece of shit that is typical of political moneymen getting in the way of common sense.

The same fu**ing idiots tried to replace the GPMG with that other f**king joke – the LSW.

It’s fat fu**ing Craphat generals that mince around on grassy ranges, totally out of their depths, watching a display of other Craphats knocking down some fig 11, then waddle off to some nice Restaurant courtesy of Enfield, where they can sit around a table drinking finest port and talking about “how good this new SA80 is compared to my day, we had the Martini Henry back then you know to fight the fuzzy wuzzies, what-what”

Then sign 10,000,000 of them with tax payers money.

Its that Fat w@#k defence minister 'Fatty Soames' that sold up to this, keeping a British Company a float, scratching each others backs.

Fact - The only feedback they listened to was from the Guards Brigade who thought it would look better on the parade ground “makes the men look much better trooping the Colours – chest out, Jolly Good”

And that bayonet system is a complete waste of space too.

Utter ballcocks

If I had my way, we would go over to the Africa and the other 3rd world countries where we sold all our SLRs and Sterling SMGs and say – we want them back.

[ED]

F**king right Chapps, it's a piece of shit. I wonder how many soldiers have got into a contact and haven't been able to return fire because of stoppage after stoppage.
Don't know what the new one is like but the previous model was diabolical in the desert. Section attacks would come to a complete standstill because there were no rounds going down the range!
Cheers,
ED.

[stew the bean]

I have to say I am not the hardend combat vertran that you lot are however......

I remeber my first ever TA weakend away....17 loving it....everyone of us looking forward to the blank firing assualt later that day.

Oh joy I was picked to fill the bunker with rounds...flic switch to fully automatic. Instucter puts in grenade...I bound up fire one round and the thing stops dead......

though twice about an army carear after that....

[Tab]

I have tried the SA80-2 and have never had any trouble with it, I found it a very accurate weapon, and easy to handle. It is much better weapon than the old .303 which I had use in combat, but that never jammed and was a good gun, and it also made a good club.

[adj125]

There seems little doubt that the L85A1 and companion L86A1 were flawed to an unacceptable degree. They might just about pass in the northern European environment, but the adverse conditions of desert warfare showed their weaknesses all too clearly. About the only good thing which could be said about them, apart from their compactness, was that they were always very accurate even with iron sights. This characteristic is fully expoited by the excellent SUSAT (Sight Unit Small Arms Trilux) four-power telescopic sight, standard issue for front-line combat units. The LSW is even more accurate, and was reportedly marketed as a sniper rifle, being effective out to 600m; in fact, some criticise it for being too accurate to deliver effective suppressive fire.

But what of the L85A2? It should be remembered that only a handful of cases of jams were reported from Afghanistan, and the problems were much less serious than the news media made out. Here is what happened, from the man in the centre of it:

Sgt Jamie Miles is a Platoon Weapons Instructor – a specialist in weapons and tactics – with the Royal Marines, and was part of 45 Commando during operations in Afghanistan last year. He sent back one of the three defect reports about problems with the SA80 A2 weapon. In Sgt Miles’ own words:

“The SA80 A2 was introduced to us at 45 Commando last November, we conducted the usual static firing weapons test and initial reaction to that was ‘OK, this weapon looks the same but it is actually performing extremely well.

“Normally we’d fire some men through a couple of basic shoots and every man would probably incorporate a couple of stoppages. With the entire company, at that stage we had none.

“We then went off to our training area. We conducted everything from single-man close-quarter battle all the way up through to section attacks, troop attacks, company and everything, and 110 men had fired approximately between 3,500 rounds and 4,200 rounds each. We had five stoppages, four of them were down to the firer.

“So now we are looking at: ‘This weapon is fantastic. Yeah, OK, it looks like a Lada but actually we are driving a Porsche 911.’ And we are now confident, and the feeling within the company was very good.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/SA80.htm

[ED]

Tab, how did it differ from the old SA80? What conditions did you fire it in?
Cheers,
ED.

[Tab]

ED

I managed to get my self invited back a few time to the Para Barracks and they took me to the ranges allowed me to blast away with all the current weapons. I know this does not make me an expert but at least I have handled and fired the weapons in question, which more than a number of people can say that have spoken on this site.

[Archie]

Checkout this book Written by a Bootneck armourer.


Title: LAST ENFIELD, THE, SA80 - THE RELUCTANT RIFLE.
Author: Raw, Steve.

Description: 2003. 360pp, 382 illus, 9x11.5; in-depth story of the controversial British SA80 (Small Arms for the 1980s), its adoption in 1985 as the Individual Weapon (IW) L85A1 & Light Support Weapon (LSW) L86A1 to how the majority of inventory was sent to Heckler & Koch, GmbH (then a subsidiary of British Aerospace) for modification & retrofit into the L85 & L86 A2 versions; covers a large variety of accessories & ancillaries developed around the SA80 weapon system for nearly a quarter of a century; Item # 101892 $49.95

[ED]

Good stuff Tab. What years did you serve in mate? Bet you still miss it.
Cheers,
ED.

[Tab]

Ed

I did my National Service in the Para's 1955/57, I must admit I was a reluctant soldier, but those were strange times, we still had many Arnhem Vets serving in the Regiment who did not really give a Sh*t for an thing and a pile of National Servicemen who did not want to be there and where there to have fun for those two years. Out of our old Company from those days I am in touch with almost 100 of them and there is a big reunion this May in Cyprus. We are often asked back to the Regiment and have ben given the run of the Officers Mess along with Sergeants Mess, from our company the lads went on to become peers of the realm, Minister For Defence, MP's, one went on to run the Australian Staff Colege after become one of their most decorated soldiers of the Vietnam conflict another went on to run the Canadian Staff College, in fact nearly every one one of them has made a fairly good success of his life.

[Chapps]

I have tried the SA80-2 and have never had any trouble with it, I found it a very accurate weapon, and easy to handle. It is much better weapon than the old .303 which I had use in combat, but that never jammed and was a good gun, and it also made a good club.

Tab, seeing you were in when the SMLE was still in service you may not be aware of the effect the transition from rifle/ SMG to assult rifle has had on the way sections / platoons operate.

If I'm right ... a section was made up of 10 men: 2 on the Bren, 2 x with Stens and 6 with SMLEs. The same applied more or less when the SLR and Sterling SMG came in (late 50s?) obviously the Bren not being able to fire in the SF role was ditched for the GPMG.

The GPMG was taken out of the section role and became the platoon gun as part of a 2 man (tripod and link carrier ) team.

In 82 the orbat was an 8 man section: delta FT - 3x rifle, 1 SMG Charlie FT-3x rifle, 1xGPMG in the light role. 1 x platoon gun in SF role.

The thinking behind the SA80 was a new generation of 'assault weapon' that would allow the sections to operate totally independently with all the same ammo and with automatic fire where required - great idea, that work if theory on the ranges because the LSW is fu**ing accurate as is the SA80.

However, the SA80 has so many flaws that after some intence firing, say 200rnds, you start to get stoppages because the gas parts get clogged up, the weapons plastic construction can also crack and the whole thing burns your hands because it get too hot, especially the LSW.

The weapon is heavy, rusts easily, the dust flap breaks off, the gas plug if inserted and turned wrong can become stuck, resulting in the gas port becoming blocked - leaving you effectively with a bolt action rifle. Great if your not near a REME work shop.

The SUSAT may be seem to be a good idea, but in my opinion need to be complimented by a effective set of iron sights, as the SUSAT tunnel vision is not good on a battle field - you could end up slotting your own blokes running in front of you. It is also difficult to see through when you have been crawling through shit and riverbeds.

Keep in mind that the American M16 does not have gas parts and is therefore not prone to the amount of stoppages as the SA80.

In 82 the blokes were ditching their L1A1 SLRs in favour of the Argies FN versions, which has full auto capability and was much better for clearing trenches when they lost the SMG man. This was part of the reason the SA80 was rushed through as the 'new' generation of Bullpup assault weapons.

Now 20 years later it is still not right and will no doubt go down in history as the only 'unloved' personal weapon issued to the British Soldier.

Chapps.

[Artist]

I used the L42.

Basically a souped up SMLE. but rechambered to 7.62mm. A times 6 scope and you were King of the area you were in.

Two blokes, one to select and one to shoot. And Lo! problems were sorted out in very fast time.

I was Bootneck but this took my interest. (Chapps don't tell me to EFF off OK? Even the Yank paras/navy Seals/USMC/Oz/NZ/German/everybody! came to Devon to learn how to do it right) My gilly suit was the Bees knees, handed down to me by a Marine sniper who liked me. No Messtins. The S's ruled.

In the early 70's the only place you could do a "proper" snipers course was CTCRM. This is a fact. So please do not tell me that I am talking through me bum!

We always gave them two shots, one to down them, the other to confirm they were out of it.

Also did the jumping out of Aircraft course. OK? (50p a day was good dosh!) 198 jumps. Some into the Oggin. In other words I consider myself to be a Soldier.

My drinking Oppo where I live is an ex Para Name of Gordi, covered in Tattos and as hard as nails. And a good Oppo. Served in 1 Para and 2 Para. We take the mick out of each other but anybody tries to put their view in they just get told to "SOD OFF!" It is all to do with what we both did as servants of the Queen. (we both came second!) He's 30% biff, I'm 45% biff.

Artist